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N | 28.08.2004 13:24 | Repression | Oxford
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Comments
Hide the following 54 comments
and er...what's the news?
29.08.2004 00:03
jim
Lack of tourism
29.08.2004 00:27
jim
I mean, Jesus,...
29.08.2004 00:34
Jim
The diary
29.08.2004 08:50
Seriously people, grow up.
Laughing Larry
hmm
29.08.2004 13:09
BTW labelling it 'middle class student...' you seem to have failed to notice it's written by three different people! :P
Oh, and in answer to jim, the details of what they've been up to are on the blog, if you're interested.
.
"Seriously people, grow up"
29.08.2004 13:15
Tom
Relevance?
29.08.2004 15:09
Tom, why is it that mortgage hunting and accumulating sweatshop goods so immediately suggest themselves to your mind (so strongly for you to publicly present them thus)as the obvious, nay, only alternative to what these 3 are doing? sounds like the usual spurious "strawman" tactic of putting a daft argument into the mouth of the person you want to slap down, because what they're actually saying is a bit trickier to refute.
Yes it's good that people go to Palestine, but it's also crucial, IMHO, to recognise that it's a thing that cuts both ways. Palestine is full of self-serving egotistical assholes at the moment, and it's spawning a culture that smacks of something like grave-robbery. It's no big thrill for the ordinary people who live there to be IN PALESTINE (woo-oo-oo) you know. They just get on with it, day to day, with astounding good grace and dignity. I'd argue that it's about time to start holding back on the applause every time some privileged visitor starts shouting from the rooftops in Nablus with nothing more important to say then "I'm here!" (witness the title of one of the diary blogs so lauded by Mr-fucking-no-name-dot-".") So when you come back and do your bullshit self publicity speaking tour (I'm oh-so courageous and good) try not to immediately forget the poor sods that you stole your tin-pot and tarnished glory from.
jim
"the usual spurious "strawman" tactic"
29.08.2004 19:17
Tom
All's "fair" in luvvie's war
29.08.2004 22:08
jim
....
29.08.2004 22:17
Tris
Mystic Tris-tic
29.08.2004 22:48
Care to elaborate?
Jim
Jim,
30.08.2004 08:48
However, given what we know about these people its hard to draw conclusions about their motives etc, so I maintain if we are to criticise, even in general terms, we should also offer constructive advice as to what not to do to avoid becoming one of the tourists we're talking about?
Tom
Advice
30.08.2004 10:39
On tourism itself, I've nothing against it personally. I just don't think it necessarily constitutes news. (Hey, this is where we came in...)The manner in which it's done is a concern though (IMHO).
As for the other things you said I might have said but didn't appear to be saying so there's no problem there (that was, in essence, the jist of it I believe) - well, thank God for that, eh?
Jim
May I?
30.08.2004 12:23
Constructive advices, Tom? I’d say all you need is a brain to think with, and the usual respect and modesty that apply to every situation in life. BTW, what are yours?
And..Jim, what’s IMHO?
fred
In My Humble Opinion..
30.08.2004 13:53
I don't claim to be entirely pure of the charges I've chucked around here either (just in case I sound anything but humble). But the experience on the ground should, as you suggest, teach - should disabuse people of their bullshit prejudices and romanticisms. I guess one should constantly question oneself and one's motives. And if you're only around for a couple of days, make sure you don't don't spend the next 365 pontificating and giving youself airs about it. It insults.
Jim
Pictures of heroism and picture of what he'sv fighting
30.08.2004 15:11
N
Homepage:
http://jennikikeith.blogspot.om
Gap in the wall at Abu Dis
30.08.2004 15:39
N
Homepage:
http://jennikikeith.blogspot.com
At Last! The News!...
30.08.2004 18:10
Your rationale that even this standard of reportage, however, is better in a way than lying on a beach in Ibiza, smacks of Tom's reasoning re. Gap Jeans and Mortgages, (See above)- duly shot out of the water for a red herring. It's like saying cottage cheese is better than a poke in the eye with a cactus. True but stupid and pointless.
If "doing something positive, no matter how small" is truly your game plan, then next time you might try this:
a) pool all the money you've saved for the trip (airfare, etc.)
b) sell the camera too, Palestine won't miss it. And the laptop. And the shades.
c)Now give it to some family in Balata, Jenin, Rafah - take yr pick.
d) shaddap about it.
Or at least spend a few weeks knocking around such areas and talking to real people, not just local dignitaries, signitaries, NGO leaders, mayors etc. (They tend to work an angle, y'know.)As for your Auntie and the Israeli soldiers are nice kids in the main(see blog)...
Finally (I'd have thought this bit needless, but hey,)Upon the oft-employed "Well, if it just informs ONE person (that a man stood on a wall on thursday)..." line -
THEN IT'S A FUCKING WASTE OF TIME.
Jim
"Heroism"
30.08.2004 18:30
Jim
FUCKING IDIOTS
30.08.2004 19:01
HEROISM'S A MOTHER OF 10 BAREFOOT KIDS IN GAZA TRYING TO RUN A HOUSEHOLD ON A BUDGET OF FUCK ALL, WITH A SHELLHOLE IN THE WALL, SEWAGE IN THE UNPAVED STREETS AND THE SOUND OF GUNSHIP ROUNDS FOR A NIGHTLY LULLABY!!! NOT SOME PRIVILEGED CUNT WAVING A FLAG IN JERUSALEM! YOU SHALLOW BASTARDS!!!
I WAS BEGINNING TO THINK I WAS BEING TO HARSH TO YOU LOT, EPECIALLY AFTER WHAT FRED SAID, BUT YOU REALLY ARE TWATS AREN'T YOU?
GO TO GAZA, THROW YOUR FUCKING CAMERA IN THE SEA, AND JUMP IN AFTER IT.
jim
fuck off jim
30.08.2004 19:24
and whilst your busy, might as well sell YOUR computer and send the money to **** whatever, although you won't get much $$$ for it as it seems to be STUCK IN UPPER CASE (hint, we can't here you shouting).
karen elliot
Got a point, Karen Elliot?
30.08.2004 19:30
Yeah I think it's it's OK to have a bit of a chip on my shoulder regarding the above. Does your position have an analysis, BTW
jim
Palestine Circus
30.08.2004 19:58
I assume these are the two main stories you guys out there want to tell us about, after a week in Palestine. Sad. It might be disappointing for you, but I don’t see how you’ll be able to find the way to even just ONE heart by showing them a supposedly westener tightrope walker who climbed up to a 9 mt. Apertheid wall “to great applause”. You will only encourage more self-serving heroes to go and show the world how worth they are. (I might even consider that perhaps, should you have gone sunbathing in Ibiza, you would have saved us from future hassle.) Should it be a palestinian kid, it does not make a change either. It’s not news, you’re not giving us what we need: your eyes, and ears, your picture and assessment of an ongoing injustice. I can only suggest that you go and talk to locals, stay with the families, share meals, play with the kids, listen and learn. Let your prejudices fall first if you want to do something about the others’.
fred
I take it that's a "no", then Karen...
31.08.2004 00:34
If anyone sees Elliot stamping around out there, tell her that her mother says it's past her bedtime. (And if anyone sees "Tris" tell her that the mother superior says the same)
jim.
I love you jim
31.08.2004 08:04
Perhaps you can slap me about a bit when i don't come up to your exacting standards
Though it seems you prefer to just stir (and attempt a one sided debate with yourself! How sad is that?!?)
You want analysis?
A hard hitting docu-drama that really moves you?
Some insight into the abyss?
Thrill seeker er? Not content with the humdrum of life in the slow lane, you want the big picture painted for you - catering for your taste in designer suffering.
Met the type before. Poo poo any and all that make any move, but have none of your own!
Perhaps you should quit your job for the security services or go back to calling yourself 'realist'.
Meanwhile, well done guys for making some effort - the world turns on a single smile.
karen elliot
Smile, though your house is breaking...
31.08.2004 10:48
OK, to (attempt to)address those bits that aren't just irrational projections and pure abuse:
"You want analysis?" - Well, of course...
"A hard hitting docu-drama that really moves you?" - It's as legitimate a form as any I suppose, when it's done well. Better than a lot of straight journalism, I'd argue.
"Some insight into the abyss?" - Please...(Cue darth vader)
"Poo poo any and all that make any move, but have none of your own!" - Well, as I hoped to make clear before, I think there's some really positive things being done for Palestine by different people. As you rightly surmise, I don't count anything I've personally done amongst them. Every time I come back from there I feel less and less sure about what's useful. But waving a flag and calling it heroism sure as shit isn't. Neither's prating about the tourist industry being the source of all woes. The mouth is lower than the eyes and ears for a reason.
"Perhaps you should quit your job for the security services or go back to calling yourself 'realist'." - Er, nope. Wrong house. Sorry.
"Meanwhile, well done guys for making some effort - the world turns on a single smile."
A single smile, yes? Well, if only we'd known it was that pissing simple all along. (All those needless tears...) Quick, tell that recently bereaved family in Khan Younis that Karen Elli "idi" ot is on her way to come and grin at them. Can you stop off in Iraq while you're there Karen?
Flowers and slaps
jim
The world turns on its axis
31.08.2004 12:44
That's the cruel reality, Miss Karen in dreamland. A smile is a good thing, when there's something to smile about. At times, rage is a more appropriate response.
fred
**@##*!!??!!
31.08.2004 13:14
all this circular argument leads nowhere
so far in this thread some well meaning posters - neive perhaps (is that an executable offence?) - attempt their own voyage of experience and get shot down by you professional doom and gloom merchants
posture and rant if you think it helps (hint: thats been tried before, it's called angst and is utterly self indulgent, ie useless)
you have said precisely nothing
achieved?
the world does turn on a smile, despite your apparent indifference to the notion that Palestinian people (children especially) could really do with a few more smiles, you would rather have us believe that such small offereings must come after the blood and guts you seem to want to focus on
not buying it
you hard bastards pontificate if you must, stir when you can
anybody reading this thread will wonder what it is that's eating you up
is it really the plight of oppressed people?
or are you looking for a bit of action to move your turgid outlook?
solidarity means solidarity
it doesn't mean harping and carping
it doesn't mean factionalisation or crowing about 'proper' tactics
would you treat a child to such negitivity for getting something wrong (in your eyes)?
you want us to understand something that you think we don't?
then tell us in as much detail as you can
knocking other peoples efforts make me think that you have another agenda that benefits from shooting others down in flames
either that or you haven't rationalised you own responses to pluralism and learning
either way you have wasted this thread and my time enough little boys
get over it
karen elliot
Er...
31.08.2004 13:18
Jim
Er...
31.08.2004 13:19
Jim
no jim
31.08.2004 13:53
And Karen, know your place & let the man have the last word!
the voice of the people
karen elliot
31.08.2004 14:02
Rolf
What fucking "people"?
31.08.2004 14:45
Can anyone think of a more fatuous pseudonym? Voice of God, perhaps?
jim
Sweety Karen
31.08.2004 15:01
Yeah, go smiling and clapping around Karen, while Palestinians are being oppressed and freelance altruistics go around in the area taking pictures of the latest hero’s performance. It doesn’t make me smile, and if this make me an hard bastard, or any of the abuses you’ve just chucked around making up for some reasoning, then experience it yourself: go and smile to palestinian children who have no house, no parents, no food, no tears anymore. Turn the fucking world on your stupid smile until your cheecks atrophy.
I agree on one point. This is a waste of time.
fred
Ibiza fund
31.08.2004 17:30
Moving on, what with all the scorn heaped on Karen's belief in the terrestrial-rotational power of a good grin, I'm concerned to point out that humour can often be the best remedy (or weapon) possible, in my view. I made friends with some of the Circus to Iraq crew when I was last in Baghdad and their work's fucking great, but I'm sure that even they'd say "the world turns on a smile" was stretching it a bit.
Considering Karen Idio-, sorry, Elliot's view, however, can I be the only one to have noticed the stark staring anomaly: namely that she's a humourless, neurotic hagbag with a smile like a crack in shit? (And a conviction that anyone with a solid argument is MI5) In fact, I refuse to believe it's even a women writing that stuff at all. More like one of those miserable, stony, pouty big grey fish, the ones with the hugely protuberant bottom lip, that just lie on the sea bed till everyone's forgotten about them and then try and bite your leg off.
Anyway, this brings me to the title of this piece. How about a whip round to send the fascist android and the paranoid grump-fish (and the Enid Blyton trio who triggered the whole thread off) to Ibiza for the rest of the summer? As a service to Palestinians everywhere?
jim
WTF?
31.08.2004 18:06
Second, which mushroom field I fall out of which tent in is none of your fucking business.
Third, can you not read English?
I think it's quite simple really. What I said, is some of us fight (ok, fairly simple so far, yes?). Some of us prefer to talk, utilising brains over brawn. Therefore, someone has to be able to come between the fighters and the talkers to allow some kind of meaningful exchange of views. Every view is valid.
What I'm saying is you obviously want to have a fight with someone. That's great. I'm happy for you. Some people however would rather see what's going on in front of them. On seeing an event, if that event makes them feel something, they share the experience with others in the hope of educating (or at least offering another opinion). Maybe that's slightly more productive than tip-tapping on some anonymous keyboard in computer-jock land. Why not do something productive yourself? At least offer some constructive critisism rather than just venting your whatever-the-fuck angst.
Maybe the ISMers aren't doing what you would do, not seeing what wonders you would have seen by now. Maybe they haven't watched children run over by tanks or single mothers gunned down while walking to the shops. Fucking good.
What? Should they make it up? Should they try and pretend they're somewhere other than they are? Should they be all Anthony Lloyd about it and run to the warzone? That's not why there I don't think.
And surely this is what it's all about. They aren't you, they're seeing what they see. Sure, it's different to what you've seen, but that's why it's independant. This isn't the fucking press-core you know. If you want Rupert Murdoch same-same-but-bullshit watch Fox or Sky news -you'll love it. I find reports like these more interesting because these aren't professional reporters (duh) these are just some local peeps who went to see what they could see.
I fail to see your problem with that.
Tris
OK, you're invited to Ibiza as well
31.08.2004 19:28
"When you try and insult someone, try and work out who you're insulting." -Well, I did try, but you didn't give me much to go on, now did you.(I only presumed the female because of what happens when one tends to err on the other side around here.And because my mum's name's Trish.)As it was, I had you down for a dull, posturing, phony and I see that I wasn't too far off. So credit where it's due, eh.
"Second, which mushroom field I fall out of which tent in is none of your fucking business." Of course it bloody is, Mr/s "And to this World..." Can you hear yourself?
"Third, can you not read English?" I'll let you off this one. It would be like boxing a no-armed man...
"I think it's quite simple really. What I said, is some of us fight...etc." - Well, thanks for clearing it up. Wasn't what you said though. And God knows what you consider to be the relevance to anything that was being discussed before or since. D'you mean that you (or they, your "us" is ambiguous) are sitting down to tea, scones and negotiations with hamas and the IOF?
"What I'm saying is you obviously want to have a fight with someone. That's great. I'm happy for you. Some people however would rather see what's going on in front of them."
-Well if I wanted a fight with someone and didn't want to see in front of me, I'd be asking for a clobbering wouldn't I? Still fail to see the relevance though (or indeed any logic). And stop trying to be sarky, your gift for it is even more impoverished than Mr/s "Voice Of You All".
"if that event makes them feel something, they share the experience...etc." -Sure. What event?
"in the hope of educating..." - Now, I suspect, we're getting it. Sheds a bit of light on the smug, high flown tone of your first post.
"Why not do something productive yourself?" - Since your primary argument has been to milk the "you don't know me" advantage of the anonymity afforded here, You invite me to do the same. Ergo, how d'you know I haven't?
"At least offer some constructive critisism rather than just venting your whatever-the-fuck angst." - Constructive doesn't have to be complimentary, Tris. If a thing looks and smells like shit, then it's OK to say it's shit, where I'm from.
"Should they be all Anthony Lloyd about it" - Well, Anthony Lloyd's a bit of a "welcome to my dark world" luvvie (I think), but he knows whereof he speaks. Time, you see. And a good pair of ears.
"And surely this is what it's all about." - er.. O.K. Take your word for it. Who am I to
contest the proclamations of the divine?
"these are just some local peeps who went to see what they could see." Me too. (in that everyone's local somewhere). Except I don't pour forth a bunch of hogwash about it. Neither do thousands of others, who you won't hear of.
"I fail to see your problem with that." -Yes, that's where you fail, right enough. And not just there as well.
Jim
hello jim, larry, anyone else or any other aliases
31.08.2004 19:53
Anyway, I don't intend to follow your silly comments, but since N has just pointed out your posts to me, I thought I'd respond briefly.
I am well aware of how well organised the zionist right wing is, how students have been trained especially to descredit peace activists, how inflexible the minds of those indoctrinated with zionist ideology can be. I've also experienced their maniplative and deceptive methods enough times to realise that the most likely explanation of your incredibly inane posts is that you belong to their ranks and your sole purpose is to discredit us. For that reason I won't be wasting any more time on this after i've posted this reply.
(Editors of indymedia - please consider the likely possibility that Jim's purpose is to get this threat taken offline - would be v. grateful if you could not oblige him, if pos by leaving our photos and stories on but taking off the offensive stuff).
If, on the offchance, you really do believe what your comments say, then I can only suggest that before badmouthing others you come here yourself and see what the situation in palestine is really like. Since you wondered why we are posting personal stories instead of what you consider to be hard 'news' (which i have also done on other occasions), I can only suggest you consider the possibility that people are often far more affected by the personal stories their friends tell than unemotional news brought to us by the mainstream press. The truth of that seems obvious.
K
K
Enter the Saviour
31.08.2004 20:27
Between "I don't intend to follow your silly comments," and "I can only suggest that before badmouthing others you come here yourself and see what the situation in palestine is really like." lies the flaw; an elementary logical one. If you'd even glanced at those comments which you call silly (presumably because someone else told you that they say nasty things about you), you'd see that several of us, in fact, have. And at least then you'd be in a position to speak about them with some credibility. Sort of similar to your position over there, really. If you've seen anything apart from a fig stall in Ramallah, let us know (as I'm sure you will).
"I am well aware of how well organised the zionist right wing is...your sole purpose is to discredit us." You and your glorious mission, eh? Silly sod. Do you think anyone from the Israeli right would bother trying to discredit someone who thinks a white man standing on a wall in Jerusalem is heroic? You're a fucking gift to them. Self important pratt. Go wave a flag.
"For that reason I won't be wasting any more time on this after i've posted this reply."
-Scant regard you paid to it's content before, by all appearances. And I'm not surprised you don't want to read the follow up. So Your position is, "Not gonna listen before, not gonna listen after. I'm right and best cause I'm here and that's that." Are you sure you're not, as it were, in the very camp that you situate me? (fiendishly clever plot if you are...)
"Editors of indymedia - please consider the likely possibility that Jim's purpose is to get this threat taken offline" - No, please leave it up. Let the swollen-headed little fools hang themselves.
"Since you wondered why we are posting personal stories instead of what you consider to be hard 'news'" - Didn't wonder. Perfectly clear why. You want to shout "I'm here" and you've nothing else to say.
"I can only suggest you consider the possibility that people are often far more affected by the personal stories their friends tell than unemotional news brought to us by the mainstream press." -Yeah, but this sewage? Anyway, tell your friends. No one cares.
Oh, they've gone...
jim
jim does sound a bit mad really
31.08.2004 20:59
Honestly mate, calm down, stop sounding like a 'realist/sceptic/bullshit buster' on steroids and enter into the spirit of tolerance and thinking it's nicer to be nice. You don't have to think of this as your only weapon (if you want to cling psychologically to your notions of masculinity - and boy are you clinging, your attitude towards the female posters in this thread stinks).
If you want to reduce the totality of Palestinian life and society as being defined by massive 24/7 suffering, then you do everyone involved a disservice. Yes the situation is dire - interspersed with long periods of dire boredom too!
The people of Palestine deserve to live normal lives, and that includes a plurality of experience - from the ispirational to the banal (hopefully stopping off at buffoonery also) - and a tolerance of other peoples non-threatening behaviour.
Alongside the struggle for international assistance and recognition of their rights, the Palestinian people also long for the simple pleasure of contact with the outside world - something forbidden them by the nature of their oppressors.
It sounds to me as if these young people were trying as much as anything to provide that, whilst enriching their own experiences and life. Are these things so terrible that you must take it upon yourself REPEATEDLY to slag them and their supporters to the nth degree?
Although it is tempting to imagine you as some zionist spook (if only because you achieve a commonality of outcome - division and divertisment), I don't think you fit the bill and anyway that would involve at least paying some lip service to a political philosophy - which I fear is beyond your present state of thinking (to characterise: 'they're all a shower of useless bastards, if only the world were more like me' and other embittered sentiments).
The voice of god only speaks once, take heed penitent fool.
the voice of god
Pardon my errant ways, lead me back...
31.08.2004 21:46
"Perhaps he actually isn't a zionist 5th columnist after all, just disturbed is all" -can't fault you there. Bilious would be closer.
"Honestly mate, calm down, stop sounding like a 'realist/sceptic/bullshit buster' on steroids and enter into the spirit of tolerance and thinking it's nicer to be nice." -Again, I must concede. I did feel that there was a bit of balanced, useful discussion earlier though. And it wasn't me who drove it into PURE abuse.(Be fair) (But that bloody photo...)
"your attitude towards the female posters in this thread stinks" -Only where they themselves stink. and not because they're women, but because they really bloody STINK. Witness Missy Elliot, E.G. (See, I didn't start the gender stereotyping either.)
"If you want to reduce the totality of Palestinian life and society as being defined by massive 24/7 suffering, then you do everyone involved a disservice." -Quite right(I don't), but not as much disservice as is done to people whose daily lot is untold sacrifice and suffering, by the sort of cheap-ass posing of wall-boy and fans. (If it was a one-off I wouldn't remark on it. But there's so MUCH of it - it SHOULD be addressed.)
"The people of Palestine deserve to live normal lives, and that includes a plurality of experience - from the ispirational to the banal (hopefully stopping off at buffoonery also) - and a tolerance of other peoples non-threatening behaviour." -Elegantly put.
"It sounds to me as if these young people were trying as much as anything to provide that, whilst enriching their own experiences and life." Quite so. I even commented similarly, way back up there. But that sodding photo, Jesus? After a week over there?
"Are these things so terrible that you must take it upon yourself REPEATEDLY to slag them and their supporters to the nth degree?" No, and actually a good part of the invective you so decry has been directed at other posters here. In pure retaliation. Which (unlike them) I've been happy to justify and defend. Logically. The general thread wandered away from the "slagging" of these 3 for quite some time. Incidentally though, did you not read the last post By "K"? Come on, Lord. It's more'n a sinner can bear.
"Although it is tempting to imagine you as some zionist spook" -You don't mean that.
"...and anyway that would involve at least paying some lip service to a political philosophy - which I fear is beyond your present state of thinking" -or that. Please, exalted one.
"they're all a shower of useless bastards, if only the world were more like me" -God forbid- AAggh, No- sorry, it just slipped out!
"and other embittered sentiments" Again, there you have me.
Any chance of you casting a cursory glance around THAT PLACE (Sorry, sore point I know)and handing out a bit of similar guidance?
Jim
Fantastic
31.08.2004 23:12
to our attention if we care to acknowledge them.
It would be unfortunate if these points were forgotten due to the arguments, entertaining and actually useful as they are.
I believe that the purpose of trips to Palestine must be disscussed publicly.
Just as, or more importantly, the actual effect we have in Palestine- Just how damaging can it be? And believe me some short trips by ignorant foreigners can be unbelievably damaging and such people should be made aware of the damage they could cause to people they claim to care about.
The other thread on the Isreali mirage/oasis school is also interesting and useful
Sharon
Abuse
01.09.2004 09:28
Most of the flaming has been provoked by one determined troll, as usual.
J
End/Start it now
01.09.2004 10:11
Joo
Troll -trial
01.09.2004 12:33
Joo- The bald and self evident truth is that, while no one (certainly not me anyway) knows best, some people do know better than others. But there alwys exists the process of reasoning for those who disagree. Some say that's how humanity advances. And yes, there is a place for insult and ridicule therein; as long as it's balanced with solid argument. Look it up - it's some way before "arse". (No, a bit higher...)
Anyone want to address the arguments set out? Or are we all just hide-behind-an-alias-and-throw-a-cowardly-stone merchants today?
jim
Troll - trial
01.09.2004 12:36
Joo- The bald and self evident truth is that, while no one (certainly not me anyway) knows best, some people do know better than others. But there alwys exists the process of reasoning for those who disagree. Some say that's how humanity advances. And yes, there is a place for insult and ridicule therein; as long as it's balanced with solid argument. And what does "do what feels best" mean, anyway? I mean, have you actually thought about what it MIGHT mean to some people? (scares me)
Anyone want to address the arguments set out? Or are we all just hide-behind-an-alias-and-throw-a-cowardly-stone merchants today?
jim
addressing the arguments
01.09.2004 13:29
Yes but that will never exclude the possibility of somebody who knows worse than others comming up with the better idea.
"But there alwys exists the process of reasoning for those who disagree."
The truth is best and cannot be reasoned any more. I'm not sure words can provide us with the truth.
"Some say that's how humanity advances."
Yes some do, Do you?
"And yes, there is a place for insult and ridicule therein; as long as it's balanced with solid argument."
I agree! Now you give me an example of a SOLID argument which cannot be reasoned.
"Look it up - it's some way before "arse". (No, a bit higher...) "
Sorry I don't understand this insult/joke/sarcasm/spite/anger/advice/patronising ridicule(what is it)?
I eagerly await your reply, if you wish to.
joo
The mole and the antelope
01.09.2004 15:24
- Quite. What about it? If anyone that I've taken to task here comes up with one, I expect I'll welcome it. meanwhile...
"'But there always exists the process of reasoning for those who disagree.' The truth is best and cannot be reasoned any more. I'm not sure words can provide us with the truth."
-I used the word truth in a nominal, hopefully consensual sense as I felt the reasonableness of the point was plain. "Truth" itself is always a word to be used with caution, though; precisely because of the unqualified status you so accurately give the concept. But it doesn't exist if it isn't found in words, some say. My view? Still on the fence about that one, really...
" 'Some say that's how humanity advances.' Yes some do, Do you?"
-Well I brought it up didn't I? Wasn't that a clue?
" 'And yes, there is a place for insult and ridicule therein; as long as it's balanced with solid argument.' I agree! Now you give me an example of a SOLID argument which cannot be reasoned."
-Check this; the sense is confused. I presume you mean that my use of "reason" conflicts (in some basic logical manner) with that of "solid argument". I'm pretty confident it doesn't though. Be honest now.
" 'Look it up - it's some way before "arse". (No, a bit higher...)' Sorry I don't understand this insult/joke/sarcasm/spite/anger/advice/patronising ridicule(what is it)?"
- Yeah, sorry for that. Really. I suppose the latter would be closest. Trying to hurriedly answer you and that fool J at once. Your first post did slightly smack of a lazy, new-agey, off the top of your head, cod-philosophical stance though. (Looking at your own navel might have been a fairer charge.)Read it again. Also read the slight difference the second time I posted that comment. (Tiresome I know, but I didn't think it had gone through)
And BTW - Slightly misleading title, Joo - addressing the arguments re. Palestine would have been more to the central purpose (I suggest). Not the boring ones about me that several absent amigos (in my view by far more deserving of the troll title) sought to foment.
Anyone for Palestine? ( not that elementary lingist/ syllogistic, masochist gymnastics aren't fun, or anything)
jim
Read the latest
01.09.2004 16:43
I appreciate he doesn't need any compliments from my quarter; I deliberately leave myself open to the charge of "patronising wanker" and stand ready to contest it. And to back up everything else I've said. (That makes me a troll, apparently.)
You ought to contrast it to what you've written previously (especially here) and hopefully have the fibre to brook a change of perspective. If not, perhaps longer trip and a bit more mingling with ordinary folk would help (sorry to repeat.)
Jim
addressing the arguments re. Palestine
02.09.2004 11:54
Love feels best jim :o) Always will for everyone no matter which way you look at it.
Don't be scared.
joo
Big round world
02.09.2004 12:07
Jim
News from Palestine
04.09.2004 13:42
Check out this site:
Matthew
Homepage:
http://palestinenews.blogspot.com/
Another blog
14.09.2004 20:00
It seems that the zionists have given the thread a wide berth, and its interesting to see the label being thrown at someone for questioning the motives of "war tourists" - my own feeling is that there is a need for more Palestinian voices - they're being drowned out by a increasing cacophony of well meaning but empty words from first time trippers who haven't even bothered to do their homework...........
Karen Elliot - for ages I have really enjoyed your posts - what happened here?
:(
freethepeeps
I guess
29.09.2004 09:39
Not immune to being wound up.
Sorry.
Love & respect to you & all who would use it well ...
karen eliot