The Northern Green Gathering and the British National Party

thanks for the info antifacist i was not intending to attend either get together but i know a few greenies who might be populating the site at the later gathering.so hitler was a veggie well well does carlos barcode know this ??? in the light of his recent clash with a couple of militant vegans.only goes to show that meat eaters aint that evil after all...i don't many who could emulate adolf and the evil doings of the third reich.
josh

Good addition Searcher. It's an important point that this is the BNP's REGULAR site.

Since the BNP have used this location for several years the chances are that the site-owner is a BNP sympathiser. I won't be subbing the BNP or lining his pockets.

Yea Hitler was a "vegetarian" if you go by the "modern vegetarian" that is, Hitler ate squab,bavarian sausages,ducks liver and caviar which was reported by his chef who prepared his meals.Incendentally Hitler also had a stick draped in deers skin for which he used to beat "his" dog with,though i doubt a "modern vegetarian" would agree with that.

The BNP started using the site in 2002. The farmers was pretty much wiped out by Foot & Mouth, and claimed he did have much choice.

See lancashire evening telegraph article from 2002 -  http://archive.thisislancashire.co.uk/2002/8/16/601189.html

What Sort of Vegetarian was Hitler?

Donal O'Driscoll, Oct 1998

For those fighting for the abolution of vivisection it is not uncommon to be
labelled as nazis by its defenders in their efforts to discredit with ad hominem
attacks when their science fails them. This is not simply a question of basic
insult. Is ugly head rises continually rises as the pro-vivisection have found
themselves a bit of twentieth century mythology of sufficent impact to latch
onto. What it boils down to is that the Nazi Party of Hitler's German claimed
to respect animal rights and therefore all animal rights activists must be of
the same calibre. The flaw in this argument is apparent to all who pause for a
minute to think about the logic behind it. The same logic would have us branding
as fascist anyone with blue eyes and blond hair.
Rather than go into detail as to the various logical flaws of this stand point - odd for men and women of science where logic is the basis of their work, we are going to concentrate on the nazis themselves and see how far the claims made by the pro-vivisectionists for them are actually true. This roughly divides into two issues: the extent and nature of vivisection in Nazi Germany and the laws controlling the use of animals in their science and society; and what sort of vegetarian was Hitler. The former has already been explored elsewhere in the essays and work of Roberta Kalechofsky (Founder of Jews for Animal Rights) [7] and Jeremy Caudle. It is the latter we shall concentrate on in this article since there seems to be as much confusion among those fighting vivisection as those proposing it. Though some would argue that we can not seperate Hitler's
opinion on vivisection and vegetarianism, this article is being constructed from the point of view of criticisms leveled at the modern anti-vivisection and vegetarianism movements which are sufficiently distinct to make this seperation nessecary to keep the issues at stake clear. For those who say that Hitler was a supporter of animal rights as defined in the modern language of Singer and Regan, then the quick answer is that in this philosophy there is no room for a person who tests out his cynide pill on his pet dog.

On of the first things we must be careful not to do is to dismiss the claims out of hand immediately. If we are to be strong as a movement we must be able to defeat our detractors at their own game and take them on with their standards. If we do this and succeed then we have made them look foolish; not doing this leaves us open to the perennial accusation of simply being ignorant cranks. Hidding from the fact Hitler claimed to be vegetarian is not going to do any
good. What we need to do is to show how this supposed vegetarianism was nothing more than a claim, in part promoted by the Nazi spin doctors, in part a weak man deluding himself.

The answer to the "accusation" that Hitler was a vegetarian, is that those who make this claim are as much victims of the man as those who believed in his lies at the time. Hindsight has given us the advantage to see through his other claims and posturings so why should we fall for this one as well.

We will start with the question as to why Hitler espoused vegetarianism then discuss how good a vegetarian he was. What seems to accepted through out the various sources and historians that this claim first surfaces in or before the year 1931. After this we get into the principle region of confusion as there seemingly two schools of thought.

The first is that Hitler was told to go vegetarian on the advice of his doctors. In the years of the Weimar Republic which governed Germany following World War I until the Nazis took power, vegetarianism was seen as a health fad for which much good was claimed. In particular it was espoused by one of Hitler's heros, the composer Wagner. Wagner believed that vegetarianism promoted vitality, long life and physical fitness, all things important to Hitler (though not practised
by) and which he was to attribute to vegetarianism. Hitler also had a chronic stomach condition which was to trouble him for the majority of his life. Connected with this was a flatulance problem. He believed that a diet of vegetables helped to settle his stomach and remove the odors of the latter.

The second is that Hitler went vegetarian as a result of the death of his niece Geli in 1931. Geli, full name Angela Raubal, was the daughter of Hitler's step-sister who was acting as his housekeeper from 1929. Between 1929 and 1931 Hitler became very attached to Geli, forming a possesive and jealous relationship over her that developed into an infatuation. His feeling for her does not appear to have been recipocated and in September 1938 she shot herself. There are several theories around her death and some mystery remains due to lack of direct evidence more than anything else, however the important issue here is that it had a very profound effect on Hitler. For the rest of his life he had a photo of her in his room which flowers were placed in front of every year on the
anniversaries of her birth and her death. Many statements as to Hitler's vegetarianism are derived from this period. Indeed the diaries of one of his secretaries states that it was as a result of Geli's death that he turned vegetarian.

So which of the above view points are correct? The first thing to note that his doctors recommended that he went vegetarian but he did not seem to follow their advice more than intermittently. However, the idea was planted in his mind and the death of his niece, which we know made a profound and lasting shock on him. His vegetarianism, or rather his definition of it, seems to have become stronger after the death of Geli Raubal. Up until then vegetarianism was associated with his feeling better from his stomach problems and other conditions, though there was some evidence that there was some cross pollination of the idea of meat being bad for him with the idea of death, another very important subject in his life was already occuring in the early 1920's, viz during his relationship with Mimi Reiter [2].

However, it was not until Geli's death, triggering a much more pronounced fixation with death did he start to fully link it with his own health which in turn, following doctors and Wagner, he linked with vegetarianism. The result is now an abhorence of meat and the real espousal of vegetarianism as a way of life, as can be so readily found in the diaries of Goebbels. That it is the death of Geli which brought about this shift of position, from a health fad to a full blown way of life is testified to in the diaries of his secretaries at the time and the well known comment to Goering that he refused to eat a piece of ham on the grounds it reminded him of a corpse. This position has been taken by a number of historians including Albert Speer, Robert Payne and John Toland. Hitler's friend, Frau Hess, is given in Toland as having said that he never ate meat after Geli's death except liver dumplings.

So on the face of it the evidence so far does seem to support the assertation that Hitler was a vegetarian. However, we still have to discuss how well he carried it out. Are we going to simply accept the ideal of the aestic leader, favoured by Goebbels [3], of which the vegetarianism was wound in to promote further comparisons with Ghandi? As with much in his life in this too he was a chronic liar both to himself and others [2]. And not even consistently at that.

Pre 1931 we have the situation familiar to many of us - we hear and appreciate the doctors advice but in the face of giving up a pleasure we do not nessecarily follow it. This holds equally true of Hitler. His love of certain meat, in particular liver dumplings and Bavarian sauages [8] is well known and he found it hard to give up meat altogether. It mostly depended on how much trouble he was receiving from his stomach as to how seriously he took the vegetarian diet.

In 1931 and after, Hitler was already well on his way to power but in the words of the historian David Irving: "By 1936 Hitler was an extremely cranky vegetarian" and even his idea of what a vegetarian seems to deviate quite significantly from what we currently take the word to mean. In the late 1930's we have the testimony of a hotel chef in Hamburg called Dione Lucas saying that
Hitler's favourate dish was stuffed and roasted baby pigeon [4]. In 1937 there was an article in the New York Times on Hitler where he is described as a vegetarian who loved ham and caviar!! [7]

It is important to point out here that there are documented cased where he ordered his chef to prepare vegetarian dishes [5], but as pointed out above this can be regarded as him reacting to increased stomach trouble at the time. Looking closer at this statement it is odd that for such a powerful figure that he would have to specfically order vegetarian dishes, when if he was such a professed vegetarian his should be taken as a matter of course.

This all fits in with the details given in the "The Medical Casebook of Adolf Hitler" by Leonard and Renate Heston [6], which chronicles his stomach aliments and the various food explorations that he tried to settle it. The overall picture is that he was more concerned about his own mortality and pain, but when he felt good he was not adverse to delving back into meat. Meanwhile, he was
keeping up the facade of a vegetarian diet to his friends as is attested in Goebbels diaries [1], the latter fulling believing Hitler's sermonizing on the subject.

For a person who manage to stamp so much of himself on the country he ruled at the time, there is no evidence that he tried to do the same with vegetarianism. yet he enforced other stringent health measures including anti-smoking laws. Indeed the opposite seems to have been the case if the treatment of the various vegetarian societies are anything to go by. Though individual vegetarians were not persecuted, their socities were being forced to leave the International
Vegetarian Union and subjected to Gestapo raids and stringent conditions.

So what are we left with? Accepting that Hitler was a proclaimed vegetarian we get a very poor impression of what that actually meant. Certainly by our standards he would he would not rank as one. At best he appears as a hypocrite, his problems not medical but seated much deeper in his psyche, a psyche with a very nasty inferiority complex and mendacious tendencies. His reasons for his belief were based on health, not moral, grounds. In fact I would go so far as to
say that Hitler's vegetarianism is nothing more than a label he adopted to suite himself. Those who use the two words together are guilty of falling foul of Hitler's own propaganda. In their glee they seize on the fact that the words can be used in the same sentence with out understanding the context in which they are given.

The answer to the "accusation" that Hitler was a vegetarian, is to ask do they believe liver dumplings, caviar and ham to be vegetarian; are they going to listen to a liar who could not even follow his own teachings?

References
[1] "The Goebbels Diaries 1939-41", translated by Fred Taylor, 1982

[2] "The Psychopathic God: Adolf Hitler', Robert Waite, 1977

[3] "Life and Death of Adolf Hitler", Robert Payne, 1973

[4] "Gourmet Cooking School Cookbook", Dione Lucas

[5] "Hitler, A Study in Tyranny", Alan Bullock, 1994

[6] "The Medical Casebook of Adolf Hitler", Leonard & Renate Heston, 1979

[7] "Hitler and Vegetarianism", Roberta Kalechofsky,  http://www.micahbooks.com/

[8] "Adolf Hitler", John Toland, 1976

Acknowledgements
I would like to thank Jez Caudle and JP Goodwin for their help researching this article.

Does it really matter wether Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian or not?

It matters whether Hitler was a veggie or not because so many people keep going on about it to put down people who show compassion for animals. And because it is fucking insulting to be compared to a piece of fascist scum.

 http://www.faceparty.com/hugebiceps


 http://www.faceparty.com/mark318

I suppose your definition of sad, is people wanting to meet normal healthy people.

If they were all raving benders or sexual freaks or even better minorities you would be saying how great they were.

Lets have a look at the Labour Party puffs on their websites shall we or the Tory from Bradford who advertised himself and his wife for unnatural sex.

Thats more like it.

"normal healthy people" LOL!!!.

Sod Farmer Giles! This is hardly a small-holding. 'Wiped-out' by foot n mouth? Yeah, I bet. He's been making money off the BNP since 2002, and providing a site for them when most wouldn't touch these scum with a bargepole. 'Green-friendly'? Yeah, like fuck. The BNP haven't chosen the same site as the NGG it's the other way round. Do you think you're going to 'convert' any of these idiots with a few yogurt-weaving workshops and juggling displays?! The NGG organisers should be hanging there heads in shame not trying to pretend that theres anything positive about lining the pockets of this fascist-friendly scumbag.

To see that those who should help each other can as usual do nothing other than bitch and cut throat about "my cause is better than yours..."

You would think that if it was such a ‘small fee’ then he’d accept someone else paying for it. But no, I do have to say that as I try to not buy products from companies which do business in ways which go against my ethical values, I wouldn’t go to a festival which was held in the same place as a BNP rally.

Its one thing to informed someone of who they are getting paid by, and another to give them business knowing full well what they are like. And lets face it if he sees noting wrong with the BNP, and says he doesn’t have ‘political feelings’ then he’s either lying or an idiot.

"To see that those who should help each other can as usual do nothing other than bitch and cut throat about "my cause is better than yours..." "

Is this a reference to the BNP?

Wouldn't want to 'bitch'.

At the end of the day, the only person who knows for sure the political affilliations of the Famer is the Farmer himself.

OK there may have been some naivity on the part of the organisers, but I find it very sad that some individuals seem to want to think the NGG are BNP supporters or do not care. I don't beleive that for a minute.

And I find it even more sad that Climate camp feel the need to have a pop with this come to us we're better - surely anyone with a modicum of intellegence can see that they are two different events - Yes there is a need for direct cation on climate change, but there is also a need for educating the ordinary person about sustainable living, and providing a family friendly, fun event showing how this can be done sustainably - which to my mind is what NGG is about.

Surely the best thing for everyone is to stop back biting and let NGG happen happily..?

Or has Indymedia really turned into something like a Tabloid letters page?

Perhaps the thing for all good green anti-fascists to do is to go to the NGG (DON'T pay, jump the fence, it's so easy) and spend the nights of the gathering quietly cutting the farmer's fences, damaging any equipment and machinery he may have left around, blocking drains etc, and generally inflicting economic damage on the idiot...if he does only care about cash, let's cost him some! A campaign of sabotage (which could continue after the festival is long finished.....) may persuade him that the BNP are a bad deal.

And what the fuck are the NGG doing? Although I admire the objectives of their festival, to knowingly support a landowner who supports the BNP is at best crass naivity, and at worst politically very suspect. I urge everyone to boycott this event, unless to rip it off.

I'm with you Freddie! Good post! Those that see the BNP as an irrelevance will be able to wave to them as they pass them on their way into the NGG.

As for the Climate Camp, whose mentioned the Climate Camp, that's not on until after the NGG? It's the Earth First! Gathering that the NGG clashes with. Sod supporting the bastard who owns the BNP/NGG site.

You sound as opportunistic as the bloody farmer! What you're saying is that he's told you he's not actually a BNP supporter, but a money-grabbing bastard who has been more than happy to play host to the BNP for the past 4 years. Why do you think the BNP have used the same site, one of the reasons is that they're not welcome barely anywhere else? There's no chance of antifascists using this site, that's just you being disingenuous. You must think Indymedia readers are as stupid as you - turn up, protest against the BNP, then go into the NGG and bung a few quid the way of the farmer who's just hosted them, and support you pricks?! No thanks, neither he nor you will be getting a penny of my money. You've known about this for ages and could have easily found another site. Your opportunistic suggestion is like saying that people picket M&S and then go and do their shopping there. The NGG organisers have behaved despiccably, and your posts on here just make you look worse.

crass naievity or a complete lack of giving a shit springs to mind pal , I for one aint accusing farmer giles of being a bnp supporter but by his willingness to do business with them he may as well be one , allowing these scumbags a space to gather whether for profit or whatever amounts to the same thing ,It doesnt matter whether its a pub or a farm, how would you feel if the nuclear power industry had there annual shindigs on the site , what about the countryside alliance ? do you actually give a shit about the rise of the far right in this country....wake up sunshine

"If you have a problem with the BNP gathering, go complain at them, not at NGG. Hold a demonstration outside, throw eggs at them, cause trouble for them. Then when they've all gone home stay for NGG and you will be most welcome."

What a bunch of fucking oppertunists!

Is it a good idea for he farmer to think that greens are property damaging, loud mouthed, egg throwing, louts? That would really please the bnp. Wouldn't it make more sense if he realised that greens are caring, rational, progressive people trying to make the world a better place? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to see that it is better to have calm, sensible, intelligent people using his land? Then maybe he will decide that the bnp are more trouble than they are worth and he won't let them use his land again.
By the way, northern green don't make any money from their camp. Fluffy & naive perhaps - opportunists & fascist sympathisers, no.

EXCUSE ME THERE IS WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST LIVES BEING LOST EVERYDAY AND YOU LOT ARE GETTING WORKED UP ABOUT A FIELD THAT NAZI'S MIGHT HAVE PISSED IN THE WEEK BEFORE.IF YOU FEEL THAT STRONGLY ABOUT IT BLOW THE FIELD UP.
JOSH

"EXCUSE ME THERE IS WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST"

Really, you patronising cunt? Some of us have been aware of that for decades. The Palestinians fought the fascist Phalange in Lebanon in the 70's, and they'd be up for fighting the BNP not sleeping in the same field as them.

As for you Green Pixie, what a mug. This farmer has been hosting the BNP for 4 years, who gives a fuck what the piece of shit thinks? Not all environmental activists are tame idiots like you.

OK so you think the farmer is a Nazi, you might be right, you might be wrong. But referring to thinking indymedia readers being stupid (the accusation placed by "concerned of gipton):- I think the people to whom the term stupid most accurately applies is anyone who seriously beleives that NGG are supporters of fascism.

You want your little ruck and glory, take action against the BNP, fuck up their gathering like you always boast that you do.

But unless you know for sure what the farmrers politics are (and plenty of you have ranted, whilst admitting that they DON'T) you should quit this moral-entrepeneurship.

Maybe if the farmer sees that having the BNP is more problem than not he might change his mind. Maybe if NGG and the other events that he's hosted all turn round and say "not again unless you ditch the BNP" he might think about it. Or maybe not in which case you'll be vindicated and you can go and take action against him. To be fair it wouldn't surprise me - he's a fucking rural lancashire farmer. It's not unlikely that there's more support for the right in that sort of circles. You gonna go and smash up the whole of Sawley 'cos they didn't complain about who he hosts?

Until you know the situation, what is to gained by trying to fuck up a family event and put all the blame on a bunch of well-meaning people who are AT WORST guilty of not researching or thinking about their choice of venue? Please explain?

This is totally what gives Antifascism a bad rep.

The matter is simple IMO: This farmer has hosted the BNP's annual fascist rally for 4 years (barely anyone wants these scum, they even have to get their printing done out of the country.) The NGG is at the same farm. If you go to the NGG you are helping to line the farmer's pockets, and indirectly supporting the maintenance of what amounts to a BNP site. There is a well-known tradition of consumer boycotts against the worst kind of companies, including those who provide services to fascist organisations like the BNP. No right-thinking person should be going to this year's NGG, the responses from the organisers on here are pathetic.

Does antifascism have a 'bad reputation' xZx??!

Well..

I have always read with interest someof the "discussions" on here where there's a bit of an accusation from more liberal types that certain people are more interested in the fighting, and that some anti fascist actions are not thought through fully and affect people that are innocent of the whole business...

Until now I have always thought, "not really, there's a good job being done and thanks to the people who are committed enough to do it".

OK - I totally agree that it's distasteful to put put money into the pockets of a BNP supporter. I'm 100% behind that. But at the end of the day no one has some up with compelling evidence that the farmer is doing anything else than thinking about his pocket. Look too hard and most people in Rural Lancashire and you'll probably find that their leanings are more right than left. OK he might have gone too far, but that's not NGGs fault is it?

What seems to have happened here is that some people putting on an event have not thought things through fully, maybe have got stuck having no time to change arrangements, might lose money (probably their own) after putting time and effort into what they beleive in, and all they are getting is abuse, insults, being called "pricks", accusations of being fascists themselves etc, and more worryingly threats that people are going to go and essentially try and fuck up their event, under the pretence of getting at the farmer.

Wouldn't it be far better to disrupt the BNP's event, let NGG go smoothly and then if you still feel the farmer is at fault take action against him that won't fall back on people who are really innocent in this, just perhaps a little naive?

I'm interested. Sadly my support for more active forms of antifascism is being seriously tested after reading this article. I don't want to be in that position, and whilst I doubt the people who are advocating cutting fences and trashing tractors give a toss what I think, I have to say that anyone who blames, accuses, or hits back at NGG is very very sad really, and loses my support for their methods of fighting something that we all know is a problem and would like to see wiped out of this world. We're all in the same struggle. Just some of us have different methods and sometimes mistakes are made. But isn't it better to try and sort them out rather than hit out..?

That's what I mean by a bad rep.

I made a perfectly reasonable comment about Mark (do you want to see my botty?) Collett, and now its been taken down. This is the second time this has happened, recently I posted a reply to Nick Cass, the big ginger cunt, and that got taken down too. All I said was that I know where he lives, which is true.

IS THE WORD "CUNT" ALLOWED ON INDYMEDIA POSTINGS I REFERE TO THE PREVIOUS CONTRIBUTION FROM BOYCOTT THE FARMER.

Hi there, I notice that the BNP recently held a so-called "family fun day", taking place at Combe Abbey where little kids, most only aged three or four, were having a go at "assault courses" and "military exercises".

 http://www.bnp.org.uk/reg_showarticle.php?contentID=1176

Shouldn't kids wait until they are of school age, before they learn how to make letter bombs, pipe bombs, and blow up pubs like the Admiral Duncan. I mean, at that age, they haven't yet had the chance to read Mein Kamph, or the Turner Diaries.

I really do pity these kids. It's not there fault their parents are racist scumbags, and worship Adolf bloody Hitler.

Shame they can't be taken into care, before they grow up, and end up serving time in prison for racist crime.

I thought the BNP believed in family values......

So all it needed to undermine your opinion of physical force antifascism was a couple of posts advocating ecconomic sabotage? With that kind of commitment I think we can do without you mate.

1) in my opinion, militant anti-fascism does have a bad reputaton - not necessary because taking militant action against fascists is a bad idea but because all too often, it seems like a bunch of kids being naughty rascals out for a bit of a fight and well up for putting drawing pins on Teacher's chair, but ultimately with no real consideration of the long-term effectiveness of their actions and dismissing any ttempts at serious and potentially critical discussion as "wimpy".

2) there is a lot more long-term benefit in persuading the farmer to stop hosting the bnp on his land than there is in forcing him to do so rhrough violent, negative scare tactics. Both methods will lead to the same result, but the latter will cause him to be scared and hateful and resentful of "the left" and more likely to be supportive of the BNP - and more likely to encourage others to be so - whilst the former will potentially lead him to oppose the BNP and encourage others to do so.

3) for fuck's sake people, can't we discuss this without resorting to endless bitchy peersonal attacks, but instead have a fucking discussion about it? Reading this thread would make anyone despair - why does being a self declared "radical" mean that you're incapable of measured, reasonable and logical argument? Anger rises in everyone, but why not take a breath sit back look at the screen read it through and think about what will facilitate a good debate and discussion, instead of giving rise to unconstructive unhelpful bitchy comments? (cue Stinking Hippy taunts)

see you at ngg

C.Y.

No, Ex Afa,

What is underminining my opinion of physical-force antifascism is NOT a couple of posts sugesting economic sabotage. I'm all for that.

The post below mine sums it up quite well actually:

- The lack of accountability that is evident here. If you are going to take direct physical action, then stand up and justify it in a slightly better way than just dismissing any criticism as liberal or wimpy. I'm personally totally behind physical-force antifascism but I think it needs to be accountable. You have chosen a valid way to fight a problem. But maybe others opinions are valid too (and I'm not referring to UAF and all that trot nonsence either, just ordinary people who might see your cuase and methods in a better light if some of the abject arrogance was left at the door).

- The resorting to bitchy comments. Why not give the organisers of NGG a chance to better explain their situation and even perhaps accept their error instead without resorting to playground insults and accusations of greed (ever put on an event of that scale? - I don't know their budget but looking at the size of it compared to their ticket prices I'd wager a break-even is the best case sscenario.)

And ultimately, could you please explain why it's better to sneak behind NGG to sabotage the farmers property? Whether NGG going ahead unhitched will have any effect on the farmer's views I can't say, but surely it would make far better a point to either:

- go directly to the BNP's event and ensure that it doesn't go ahead and actually strike at the problem. (Maybe you are and I wouldn't expect you to say one way or the other as I have a little more respect than that.)

or:

- wait until NGG is over and give the organisers a chance to have a better shot in the future (I think awareness has been plenty raised to them), instead of going on to their site and causing trouble when there will be totally innocent people who don't know anything about this, (call them middle class hippies if you like) on site with their kids and then go an make sure the farmer knows exactly why it's being done.

All that will happen if you hide behind NGG is that the farmer will think that people who go to festivals are vandals. That hardly makes your point does it?

And if anyone wants to boycott the event, that's their privilage. That's fine!

It's not advocating economic sabotage undermining my opinion. It's the refusal to engage in sensible debate, and explain your motives and beleifs, and ultimately that how the suggestions made by "Freddie Fence-cutter" and "Black and Red" look is simply that you want to hide behind a group of hippies and let them take the rap for your actions. If you're going to use direct methods be accountable, make it clear what is happening and why, and don't try and let others take the blame.

NGG are not fascists. They have just made a mistake.

The organisers of NGG have had every chance to reply to criticisms of their event - Here and elsewhere - Their responses, such as they are, are pathetic. It is disgraceful that the issue of the NGG sharing a site with the BNP, and thus giving money to the farmer who has hosted them (and ignored all the peaceful protests against them) is being turned round to attack militant antifascism on the basis that one person on this thread (with the applause of another) advocated damaging property. For those who take the BNP (and the other fascists from all over Europe who will be present) seriously, what the NGG organisers are doing is akin to holding a conference against vivisection in the Huntingdon Life Sciences lab, it should not be dismissed lightly. I don't see anyone calling the NGG organisers fascists, what they are is stupid, but since they found out about this matter (long before it appeared on Indymedia) they have stubbornly stuck to a path of self-interest. Nowhere have I seen a grovelling apology from them, or a discussion about cancelling the event or finding another site, all I have seen so far from them is bullshit. To some who go to NGG, the BNP may be of little relevence, but to those green activists who do care about organised fascism, there should be no place for them at the NGG. Don't give a penny to this money-grabbing farmer who accomodates a fascist rally on his site, boycott the Northern Green.

"in my opinion, militant anti-fascism does have a bad reputaton"

Among who?

"not necessary because taking militant action against fascists is a bad idea but because all too often, it seems like a bunch of kids being naughty rascals out for a bit of a fight and well up for putting drawing pins on Teacher's chair"

If you actually got involved with militant antifascism you would see that there are people involved who are in their 50's. Where do you get this stuff from, certainly not from the considered actions of genuine antifascists? It;'s usually the Right who try to caricature us, though you're hardly the first to do it on Indymedia.

"there is a lot more long-term benefit in persuading the farmer to stop hosting the bnp on his land than there is in forcing him to do so rhrough violent, negative scare tactics. Both methods will lead to the same result, but the latter will cause him to be scared and hateful and resentful of "the left" and more likely to be supportive of the BNP - and more likely to encourage others to be so - whilst the former will potentially lead him to oppose the BNP and encourage others to do so."

For the past 4 years, a number of antiracist organisations have tried to persuade this farmer not to play host to the 'Red, White, & Blue' festival. There have been protests outside the gates, leaflets have been given out, letters have been written to the local papers, etc. They have not made one bit of difference to the farmer. Personally, I could not care less if the RWB is cancelled because this mercenary is scared, hateful, or resentful. To think that this individual is going to miraculously convert to opposing the BNP is naive at best and disingenuous at worst.

"see you at ngg "

You've made your position clear CY. It's a shame you can't do so without slating antifascists.

As someone who has been involved in organising previous Earth First! gatherings I must say that we put a lot of work into researching the sites we choose. Even if the BNP had not been using this farm for several years, there is absolutely no way we would use it - from a simply environmentalist point of view. The NGG organisers don't seem to have put anymore effort into finding a site than they did picking a date (which clashes with this year's EF! Gathering despite the date being advertised well in advance.) If you want a tranquil, DIY, environmentalist gathering on a beautiful, ethical site, with other environmentalists who DO care about the BNP, the EF! Gathering is the place to be. If you want to be pissing in chemical toilets, buying overpriced veggie burgers and "green" tat, and giving money to a greedy industrial farmer who lets a fascist rally on his land, go to the NGG.

If I was taking my kids to the Northern Greed I'd be more worried about Nazis leaving boobytraps and shit behind rather than Freddy and his mates cutting the farmers fences.

I think the accusations of being (if not fascists) fascist sympathisers are there. I'm interested where else this has come up, where else a chance to reply has been given as I've not seen it.

I don't think I have tried to turn this into an attack on militant antifascism, though if you feel that, that's fair enough. What I have said is that a number of responses (at best polite but incredibly sanctimonious, at worst downright childish and offensive) have been endemic of attitudes within militant antifascism that I feel are problematic. I've made it clear on a number of occasions that as a movement/method/beleif it has my support.

But so does NGG. If anyone wants to boycott it then that's up to them. Personally I'm still going there, as I have always enjoyed it and beleive that in being an approachable way to educate people about "green" issues and above all show how an entire event like that can be run sustainably.

I don't see a path of self interest personally. I see a trying to make the best out of a situation I doubt anyone's happy with. Perhaps an apology would have been more forthcoming if there had been less name calling and abuse and above all less demanding of one and comments like they should "hang their heads in shame etc." That sort of thing just indicates that there are still folk who see themselves as self-appointed overseers. Aren't we all against that??

If anyone want's to call me a liberal, naive or some of the worse insults that have been bandied about then fine. I don't expect much else from some people who've posted in this discussion. However I respect the few who have actually engaged and put their point across in an adult manner.

The 'additions' from Gael and Stu, who are involved with the NGG, are responses to the issue highlighted in my original post. I think those posts speak for themselves, and reflect very badly on NGG. They seem to make "the best of a situation" only for themselves. I don't know which poster said that they should "hang their heads in shame", but I don't think that makes that person a "self-appointed overseer", it's simply a comment - there is nothing intrinsically authoritarian about having opinions, and Indymedia is surely an appropriate place to express those opinions. I think the NGG organisers SHOULD be ashamed of themselves, if only for their sheer stupidity apart from anything else. It is complete conjecture to suggest that most of the posters on this thread are involved with militant antifascism, personally I doubt that is the case, but in any case I prefer most of their attitudes to an attitude of (what amounts to) indifference. I DON'T think anyone has accused the NGG of being fascist sympathisers (there are a number of inaccurate attributions in your previous posts xZx.)

I don't know where else this issue has come up ( think my post may have been replicated on Libcom and certainly it was posted on Urban75.) I DO know that the NGG organisers have been aware of the situation for some time, and appear to have done their best to keep it quiet. There's certainly nothing about the matter on the NGG site, which along with Indymedia, would seem to be the perfect place to respond to criticism and/or make an apology.

Personally, I think that the EF! Gathering is a vastly better example of sustainable environmentally-friendly living than the NGG, and it is certainly a better example of non-hierarchical libertarian organisation.

So will those who will still be going to the NGG be attempting to "persuade" this farmer of the error of his ways? Or will they be just 'chilling out', buying over-priced 'green' trinkets, juggling or whatever it is people do at the Northern Green? From experience, I find the idea you are going to "persuade" this farmer to drop the BNP laughable (and I'm sure the Northern Green organizers know that full well.) But if anyone is going to try it (and you could be on the phone to him already), why not report back to us - and then at least have the humility to admit you got nowhere - Just like everyone else who has tried talking to him has got nowhere.

If anyone on here knew the sums of cash involved in the NGG I don't think they'd be feeling sorry for the organizers. Perhaps they'd like to say just how much they're handing over to the site-owner?

...is pretty much the word to sum this up. The fact that NGG, whilst affiliating itself to radical politics, can't make a fairly straightforward ethical choice about its venue is frankly disgusting.

In the interests of transparency, can someone involved with NGG perhaps post up exactly what sum of money is being handed over to the venue and how far in advance it was booked? Considering the situation, I feel its only fair that we know the full facts.

Seriously, can you imagine any of our European comrades tolerating this sort of paradox? Not only is it a disgrace in itself, its also a colossal embarassment for the green movement in the UK.

This sort of apathy (one might be tempted to say avarice?) is typical of the half-arsed attitude that is currently crippling the left / green / anarcho tendency in the UK. And to try to turn this thread - which I feel is a profoundly important discussion - into a totally unjustified slating of the militant antifascist movement is nothing short of disgusting... what is it going to take to shake people in this country out of their complacency? Several thousand nazis marching, like our German comrades have to face? Being rounded up in cattle trucks?

For what its worth, although my political focus lies largely in other directions, I've been to both NGG and the EF! Gathering (a long time ago admittedly), and in terms of presenting a radical and constructive alternative, they are utterly different entities. I could probably get biting, but my opinions on didgeridoos and dreamcatchers aren't really relevant here - suffice to say I'd urge all interested comrades to forget the NGG and head to Wales...

I haven't lowered myself to checking, but I expect the clowns on Stormfornt will be tossing themselves silly over this sorry fiasco.

Good post Yorkshire RASH. I think it would be better for NGG to be transparent (even if they are no longer able to come 'clean') and declare the sum they're handing over, since this will certainly be discovered if they do not report it themselves.

The NGG organizers may not be fascists, but the word 'traitors' springs to mind (along with a few others.)

Bradfgord anti-racist

Hey yeah, lets all boycott the NGG! Then the organisers might lose so much money that it'll not happen next year! That'd be great!

I bet the BNP are pissing their pants laughing at this thread.

Redbug

Fuck the NGG organisers, they deserve to lose money. They knew about the BNP being on the site and tried to keep it quiet - as they still are. They're scabbing on the whole movement - fuck them.

I doubt the NGG will lose any money - Simply because there are too many spineless middle-class liberals for whom the BNP are just not important - Certainly not as important as a weekend away drinking organic cider and juggling. I hope it fucking pisses it down!

As for the BNP, I doubt that they're pissing themselves at this thread anywhere near as much as when they found out that they were going to be followed onto site by the Northern Greed - and they've known about that just as long as the NGG.

Who are the Northern Green lot, I see they meet at Oblong, does anyone know. They deserve to be shunned for what they've done, this is a disgrace.

As a previous organiser of NGG / EF / Dissent gatherings (who's not been at all involved this year and just heard about all this and a bit shocked) and also been involved in anti-fash stuff...

I'm very disappointed to hear of the site choice, one I would have blocked if I have been involved, or left the collective & the project had the others still been keen to go ahead...

I agree that this should be addressed in the ngg website, and that the organisers comments here have been, well, a bit rubbish really. And I feel let down as the ngg identity, a project I have put much time and effort into over years it was has been sulllied, and I now feel unsure of any future involvement.

However I wish to note that:

As ngg has always been a place that was very supportive of ef! and the direct action movement, and a place to recruit new folks.. with a large campaigns area... how got involved in ef! myself.

NGG is, (or was?!) very much a non- hierarchal, consensus bassed event.

EF! borrows NGG tat every year to run the gathering, as did the eco-village in Stirling. And many of the organisers of the dissent Stirling eco-village were ex NGG organisers.. much of the skills & contacts from that were used.

And in the past you could not jump the fences.. as there weren't any. Its always been about trust, honesty, putting in what you can and collective responsibility.

NGG organisers don't get paid, they put in huge time and effort to put on a sustainable gathering to promote different campaigns and sustainability. It often lost money.

Although it blatantly becomes a festival every year, the aim has always been to run an educational gathering.. and our focus has always been on the campaigns, low impact living, permaculture & kids spaces.. and trying to defend the highly controversial sound system ban.. The idea is an outreach event in contrast to ef! which is a big meeting.. both useful to the movement..

Yeah true there are also lots of hipies & hippy shit there too.. The way it usually goes is that the income for the traders just about covers the cost of feeding all the folks who put time into (voluntary) at the event.. the organisers, stewards and site crew... I personally liked it better how we did it at the eco-village in Stirling.. and had very, very cheep food and all the folks, even the most busy organisers bought their own food from the kitchens. My dole was enough. And there was not any hippy tat.. ahh it was beautiful!

But the cafes that come to NGG charge a lot more for food. Some want to make money.,. its their livelihoods and other campaigns want to fund-raise. There is not the energy to cook for cost for an education gathering like at a big protest and there really isn't time for the organisers to cook themselves.. they'd practically just never eat.. so the Traders / Food thing seemed to work.

I also know of many EF! folks that have funded campaign (& sometimes themselves by selling more, er, intoxicating stuff) for some time off selling stuff at NGG. - also unlike the BGG, dodgy things like crystals, carnivorous plants, and animal furs were not welcome.. and the organisers were happy for folks too do actions anyone attempting to fly pitch them.

And what's the obsession with slamming the veggie burgers y'all? Supporting 'veggies' (the animal rights vegan catering campaign)and hopefully beiing one of the palces thay can make money in the year so thay can provide the amazing cakes & stuff they do for donations/cheap at so many actions and events throughout the year is one of the good things about NGG.

NGG uses shit pits not chemical toilets.. that's BGG.. (a totally unconnected event)

I suppose what I am saying is that yeah this BNP stuff is in my opinion very bad and a big mistake to be condemned - I don't disagree with the criticisms of that.- but want want to raise as far as the 'festivals' in the uk, ngg has always been one of the soundest, the most linked in with EF! and the direct action movement - and the organisers put in much time and sometimes money, for no financial return at all - calling it northern greed is just silly. Its not as radical space as we managed to create in Stirling last year.. but as a form of outreach, in the past, its existence has been a good thing.

Yeah the dream-catchers and djembes do really start to do your head in though.

Ex NGG organiser

I have been told there was not one anti Fash who turn up over the weekend where the BNP had it's summer ralley. There was thousands of BNP there at the weekend. So all those who posted on here who advocate physical force, where will you? There was large groups of BNP in Skipton and Clithroe at the night, to be fair very peacful with alot of them with their families. Suppose its a bit different throwing a brick through someone window at night then legging it, to facing up to BNP security. Is it true as posted on libcom that 3 Fash put about dozen anti Fash on their toes in Leeds on a pre arrange meeting? The anti Fash shouted a few slogans at the Fash then ran? I don't believe in political violence just wondered if its true.

'Joe' is very obviously a fascist troll, and spreading lies as always. Please remove.

'Joe' is very obvioiusly a fascist troll (with the usual fascist standard of literacy.)

"I have been told there was not one anti Fash who turn up over the weekend where the BNP had it's summer ralley"

Really, who told you that 'Joe'?

"Is it true as posted on libcom that 3 Fash put about dozen anti Fash on their toes in Leeds on a pre arrange meeting? The anti Fash shouted a few slogans at the Fash then ran?"

That wasn't posted on libcom, and it isn't true. A "pre arrange meeting"? Like playground football-hooligans have?! You fascists really are sad fantacists. You've been getting your arses kicked for so long, no wonder you can barely walk upright.

Good post 'ex ngg organiser'. No wonder you feel sullied, I feel saddened for you too. Whatever the situation with ngg in the past this will really be a line in the sand for many people, and something the current organisers don't deserve to come back from. You can't behave as they have and deserve respect from the wider movement. Don't suppose there'll be tat going to EF! this year (or Veggies?) since, despite EF! being advertised first, the organisers chose to clash (something EF! have always avoided.) I think they've behaved very badly indeed, and personally I will be disgusted if any of my friends even go to the ngg.

As far as I am concerned what the NG are doing is like the requivalent of scabbing. And they shouldn't be forgiven for it.

Hmm, I'm already booked to go to the NGG but read the comments today with interest. Thank goodness people are being vigilant. It is great there is a Northern Green Gathering but it's a crap choice of venue since the farmer has supported the BNP by allowing them on to the site. Allowing them to meet there is tacit support.

The best thing the organisers can do - they may have been very naive here - is to make a clear statement on it. Then they should say to the farmer after this year's event, either ditch the BNP or we withdraw our trade for next year. Make a statement on that. Be clear. This is business but some business choices do involve politics. The green movement covers all spectrums. Fascist BNP types do masquearde in 'alternative' and 'green' groups. The BNP was one of the first groups to call for 'no' to the flouridation of water.

It's my decision and I am giving the NGG the benefit of the doubt here. I understand the comments against going but I will judge the NGG after the event. Be clear about it organisers - I'm sure there are other sites and interested farmers in the North. And there are people who would like you to say something and act.

IMO Green Man, the NGG organisers have had plenty of time to act, and plenty of time to issue a statement. They knew about it long enough in advance to have a change of venue, and would have picked up support by making a clear statement about the reasons for the move. Instead (while they have discussed it at their meetings), they have done nothing, clearly hoping that, like yourself, people will buy tickets before they find out about this. That is a VERY cynical approach. They are well aware of this thread on Indymedia, and the only responses they have bothered to post are, frankly, an insult to the intelligence of Indymedia readers. They are treating the whole movement with contempt, and deserve to be treated with contempt in return. Moving to a different site next year, which they'd have probably done anyway, is barely even approaching a token gesture. I feel sorry for those people who have bought tickets for NGG, without knowing that their money is going to a farmer who happily plays host to the BNP, but I think they should be asking for their money back from the unscrupulous individuals running NGG this year, who IMO have betrayed the entire movement. They are quite simply a disgrace.

15/08/06: British National Party honours violent race attacker
Category: General Posted by: Antifascist 5 Comments
The far right British National Party awarded a prize to an activist jailed for a violent attack on an asylum seeker.

The BNP's Worcester organiser Kevin Hughes was handed a two and a half year sentence for a vicious racially-motivated assault on an Iraqi man.

Today the neo-Nazi party boasted on their website that Hughes was also voted 'Activist of the Year' at their annual Red White and Blue festival of hate.

Anti-fascist campaigners said that despite the sharp suits Nick Griffin's party remained a rag-bag of violent thugs.

Sabby Dhalu of Unite Against Fascism commented: 'The BNP tries to reinvent itself as a legitimate political party but clearly this shows the true face of the BNP; an organisation that celebrates violent attacks on BME communities and is fundamentally a fascist and racist party.'

Terry Fitzpatrick, an anti-fascist activist, added: 'It says a lot about the BNP that a man sent to prison is considered a political prisoner and a hero.'

BNP activists at their convention awarded Hughes the honour 'in absentia' and also donated cash for a banner to portray him as a political prisoner.

In addition to his violent attack on an asylum seeker, Hughes is an agent for Reddich BNP councillor Brian Turner, who was recently found guilty of a racially aggravated public order offence. It has been reported that Turner has a history of previous convictions.

Mohammed Azam, a Labour Party NEC member said: 'Both of these cases show the true nature of the BNP: a violent, racist and fascist organisation that is not fit for public office.'

The "Red, White, & Blue" is the only place that the BNP (and their fellow fascists from all over Europe) get to hold a national rally and to network. They are pariahs everywhere else and open to challenge by anti-fascists. They are able to strut around here, using whatever language they like, plotting whatever outrages they want, because this unscrupulous and mercenary farmer is happy to take their money and accomodate a fascist rally on his land. Make no mistake, he IS supporting the BNP.

The NGG organisers knew about this well in advance, they had every opportunity to make a positive stand against racism and against the BNP - They explicitly chose not to do so. They also chose not to issue a statement or apology about the matter in the hope that those wishing to attend NGG would be kept in the dark about their collusion with organised fascism. We have been treated to the ridiculous spectacle of the BNP packing up their tent as the NGG pitch theirs.

The NGG organisers may think that they have got away with their thoughtless, irresponsible, and treacherous behaviour, but they haven't. The way they have acted will be remembered by antifascists and by Green activists who DO care about the rise of the BNP, it will haunt the NGG and each and every one of the NGG organisers.

That's a shameful response (see additions) Stu.

If anyone care's to check the 'hidden comments' section there's supposedly a post from the BNP's Yorkshire Organiser.

 https://publish.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/08/346768.html?c=all

That could just be Cass shit-stirring, but then we do know that the two lots were on site at the same time as the BNP packed-up and the NGG put their stuff up, and we also know that there wasn't a punch-up.

NGG great day
17.08.2006 00:27

Just left the site after a very successful Red White & Blue BNP festival which i organised - photos on our website www.bnp.org.uk. It is late and I have just left the site because i was made to feel so welcome by our green comrades. We may not have much in common but we do have some things, one being a green environment, and the other the love of our countryside and nature.

Remember folks i am from a hippie background.

After i bought a bottle of organic apple juice i mulled around chatting to people setting up their pitches, actually giving one or two Freedom papers away to people who recognised me. Remember not all greenies are against the BNP, people were certainly friendly enough.

I had a tour around the sauna, various chill out zones and i honestly wished i could have stayed for the night. After wishing the people good luck for their festival and the best of luck with the weather, we shook hands and i got back into my car and came home.

What an interesting week i have just had, thanks for the hospitality.
Nick Cass

I don't know how much the NGG are handing over to the farmer, but it would be fairly easy to find out since they have had open meetings. I heard they've paid £7,000 to hire in bouncers for the event!

That's an exaggeration, it's £5,000 actually, and if there's a problem it will be money well spent. Plus, it's not like we've just hired in meat-heads, they guys doing the security are really nice AND they are proffessionals.

Northern Green

"Believe it or not, it is possible for people to not have any political views. "

Politics, real politics, is something most of us can't escape from; it's about being in debt or being homeless or being racially abused; it's about not being able to get a job and struggling on income support. Politics is all around us, and most of us can't opt out of it.

This farmer certainly understood politics enough to realise that there might be a problem with the BNP and warn you about it didn't he Stu? (Of course he overestimated you.) And I think he knows enough about politics to know why he has people protesting, and why the BNP have been back to his farm 4 years in a row.

As an environmentalist I try my best to make ethical choices in everything that I do, particularly consumer choices. This is some example by the Northern Green Gathering isn't it? Not!

The NGG are certainly not in a position to criticise people shopping at Marks n Spencers or SAinsburys or whatever

Hey look i am not shit stirring it is true. Ask the guy who sells the organic apple juice or the guy who runs the sauna. I had a look around, because i was interested, my politics dont mean i cant engage in debate with other people who dont share my politics. I felt at home because i have had a varied life.

Unlike some of you who slags me off or calls for physical attacks against me, i am interested in the way others live, and i have had plenty of experience living with others.. I have engaged in more cultures than probably everyone reading this by the time i was twenty, due to my travels in my sporting days.

I have plenty of respect for others, and wish for them the chance to live their lives as they see fit in their own free country's. I also wish the same for my people and i have respect for my own history, culture and heritage and this is where we differ.

One only has to look at Sormfront to see the REAL face of the BNP, but it says a lot about the Northern Green Gathering that Nick Cass was able to wander around talking to people, socialising with them, and if he is to be believed, distributing BNP propaganda. Nice one Northern Green.

"I have plenty of respect for others, and wish for them the chance to live their lives as they see fit in their own free country's."

REALLY Nick? So what do you think of the VNN rantings of your BNP comrade Sid Williamson as reported on 'The New Face Of The BNP' thread? He may be more thick than you (and probably more thick than everyone else on the planet), but is he just a wee bit more honest? Will you be calling for his expulsion, I doubt it?

This demonstrates something that the NGG organisers are too stupid to appreciate: If you lie down with dogs (And you have) then you are bound to pick up the odd flea.

Well I hope the lot of you are bloody soaked!

Nick Cass, presents himself as a reasonable 'everyman' type who just wants a decent standard of living for the forgotten man. The man who plays by the rules and grafts everyday, who enjoys a laugh and stands his round in the pub, who is intelligent enough without being sanctimonious, the guy who just can't get a break no matter how hard he tries.

What he doesn't present is his racist analysis of why he's in this situation or his fascist aspirations to reverse his fortunes and the fortunes of the people who identify with this image.

Now however hard he tries to deny it Nick Cass believes that race is the defining factor in human society as does every member of the BNP (albeit in a different ways). Basically he believes that at the top are the Jews, controlling the money and property, causing division and confusion so as to quietly profit from everyones sweat and blood. At the bottom are Black people, stupid, crude and criminal. And in the middle a multitude of shades and deficiences. And all these people, whilst uncontrolled are making it impossible for the only true and rightful inheritors of the earth and it's bounty to reap their reward: the white Christian male.

Cass is smart, he's not about to just come out and boldly state how he veiws the world as much as he not about to tell you the reality of the BNP plan (a 'solution' based on this worldveiw is not that hard to imagine). Instead he will slither around Indymedia, presenting an image of himself as compassionate and concerned, misunderstood and villified by rabid and out of touch Anarchist anti-fascists.

Cass is a racist and a fascist, make no fucking mistake. He should not allowed anywhere near our movement or on indymedia.

NO PLATFORM FOR FASCISTS!!!!!!

For an update on the NGG & the BNP see  https://publish.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/leedsbradford/2006/08/348868.html