UK Indymedia | Manchester Mayday celebrations against capital

da dee da

02.05.2006 15:47

how come and in the pics it looks like it was just about 20 people there?

hmmm

An excellent day, which if nothing else made a few people think.
Quote of the day:

Mother (to son): "That's what happens when you do drugs" (points at march).

Perhaps some more literature needed, but for a rainswept manc day a considerable turnout. I'll post up some pics once i've uploaded them.

Mime

Mime
mail e-mail: Azran80@hotmail.com

well bum

03.05.2006 11:17

me and twenty of my mates are, like, well pissed at capitalism and the state and, like, world starvation and shit so we decided to have a well bum picnic against world starvation yeah? but its manchester and it rained right which is well macca. so we danced against capitalism instead yeah? cos like it was mayday and these 4 blokes got killed ages ago in america right? and we hate the po po man they're like well macca and shit? and we totally reclaimed the printworks yeah cos its like evil and shit - people just go there and like drink alcohol and watch well raas films about war and how great america is and stuff but we reckon america is rubbish. cos we reckon, right, that if all the people shopping and spending they're money on crap that they don't need can see us having a party and dancing and stuff instead of buying stuff, they'll start dancing too, and then they'll probably go vegan, and then they'll all call in sick and tell they're mates in liverpool about it, and then there'll be a general strike cos all the workers will join in and all start dancing in the streets, even the peasants in poor countries where they don't have anything to eat will start dancing and everything will be like well bum and like totally dutty man.

de niro

Re:^

03.05.2006 13:27

I far prefer doing something/anything rather than sitting at home or in a pub complaining about it. If only a few people read the leaflets or banners, and interpreted it how they wish, them perhaps a percentage would at least go do a bit of reading up as to who Dalton is, what the climate camp is all about or even just the anti-capitalist movement as a whole. Perhaps some just enjoyed the free samba, reggae and sandwiches!

Also it encapsulated a feeling, for me at least, of free use of space, of "reclaiming the streets". It's not all that often people do dance in the street without masses of alcohol, or enjoy music outside when they don't have to pay or travel to get there. Okey Cokeying in the centre of a town, and enjoying it, has a value in itself.

I certainly didn't come across any specific anti-american feeling during the protest.

Mime

Mime
mail e-mail: Azran80@hotmail.com

well mime,

03.05.2006 14:18

it is very unfortunate that the message passed to the public was that you are a bunch of junkies (that's from mime's entry and not my view). May be you have done more harm than good with your "action". next time try passing on the real message of rights; may be try passing on the real message of anarchism.

ren

Lets all criticise those who got off their arses

03.05.2006 18:46

Just how many fuchwits sit at home looking for the opportunity to criticise people try to make possitive change?

You just do not know how much impact your demo has. In the late 70's I listened to about 15 people outside a football ground saying how shite the NF are and how we should run the fuckers off the streets .. From that point on I became more and more politically active, and along with two of those people we still try to run that assorted shite of the streets, well walk after them and threaten them with our walking sticks at least!!

Combat Combat 18

raas

03.05.2006 19:21

the "do anything" attitude is just the kind of dumb attitude that needs to be reflected on cos it leads to a situation like this - where a bunch of friends dance to a shopping trolley in a public square and call it anticapitalist. perhaps they don't understand the nature of capitalism - its a system of economic force, not an idea and it can't be countered with ideas based pranks. by all means have a dance or a picnic (quite normal things to do really) but its just masturbation to post it as an anticapitalist action on this newswire. just lighten up and have some fun without feeling the need to brand it as anticapitalist.

brooklyn

Free

03.05.2006 21:43

Capitalism for me gives everything a value, and doing things that don't cost anything, that are free to anyone is a big part of the anti-capitalist ethos.

It can't all be highbrow politics and direct action, sometimes it has to be fun

Mime
mail e-mail: Azran80@hotmail.com

oh no

04.05.2006 09:51

oh no the world has like totally gone to shit and I hate everyone so I'm not going to do anything about it.. I'm just going to read books about existentialism and the spanish civil war and do nothing but sit at my computer on web forums and shit dissing everyone else who wants to try doing anything because I dont have the energy or self confidence or imagination to do anything myself so if I make other people feel bad about the things they do then i'll feel better about doing nothing. Wow my life is so inspiring and so full. When the world is fucked and kids say what did you do, I'll say I slagged people off on web forums. Then they will see my power and intelligence. All these people that dance in the streets and have fun and whilst they do it try to pass on a bit of info about climate change, they know nothing. They are bad, bad people.

theworldsgonetoshit

"Perhaps some just enjoyed the free samba, reggae and sandwiches!"

04.05.2006 18:36

Nice though that seems I somehow doubt that will bring capitalism to its knees.

the middle finger

Anticapitalists of the world, unite!

04.05.2006 20:35

Anticapitalists of the world, unite behind your PC screens and moan about people dancing in shopping centres (or wherever they fancy), cause they are the wretched of the earth and shall be wiped of its surface by the all encompassing power of class struggle armchair cynicism.

anticap

ok

05.05.2006 00:14

i think the most important thing pointed out here is that posting pics of people and their mates dancing in the street and calling it anti capitalist is pretty much a joke, and that people criticising it always gets the same shit like 'oh you just sit at home and criticise us while we do such amazing work and change people minds, man'.
well to be honest, its because its bloody easy to take the piss out of. I have nothing against 'action' that does something, or inspires people. what i DO have something against is the way small things like pissing around with your fucking mates in a park is posted on indymedia and dubbed this really great action thats ment to make people think. what the fuck are people ment to think when they see a bunch mates dancing to music in the printworks? '"oh i must get rid of all my things, they like, OWN ME DUDE! ive never realised that objects reflect on me as a person, wheres my bongos?"
The public is not thick, and im sure are perfectly aware that possesions do not dictate who you are - yet also, the stuff that surrounds us does have an effect.
The idea that most 'ordinary' people (ie not full time activists who dedicate their life to wasting time in stupidly long meetings) have no concept of 'things' and their lives is a fucking stupid assumption to make.
you 'activists' are not liberated in any way. your another subculture wanking its self off and congratulating itself on all its great work. but unlike other subcultures, you think that you have some right to judge people.

grow up. go dance at some fucking free party K'ed up to the eye balls, but dont make other people have to watch your pathetic little gangbang.

Oh, and the really annoying thing is the 'im oh so liberated' idea activists seem to hold. your just in your little subculture and if all your mates were not dancing in the streets then you would not be either. your not liberated, your part of a social group therefore you do what they do. fair enough, a social group with more morals than alot of people, but the way they are carried out, and the way it reflects on the rest of society is really a big pile of crap.

if this is activism, i just remembered why im not an activist.

huw

MIME

05.05.2006 00:21

"Capitalism for me gives everything a value, and doing things that don't cost anything, that are free to anyone is a big part of the anti-capitalist ethos.
It can't all be highbrow politics and direct action, sometimes it has to be fun "

people do free things all the time that are fun, not just activists. and they dont have to be silly actions. do you think people dont know this? oh, i forgot, fun has been taken over by capitalism maaaan, everything has a value.
no it bloody well doesnt so stop being silly.
if you want to change peoples minds the way your going about it is pretty much wrong. do you wonder why people like me who actually agree with what you are basically standing for, think these 'actions' are really rubbish?

this is why nothing will ever change i think. oh well!

ah jesus christ!

yep

05.05.2006 10:01

How oppressed are you to feel that eating humous and dancing in a park is an achievement? yeah it's good to have fun but is not such a huge achievement right? and the fact that you stayed in your little clique without involving the public is not going to help change people's views. Totally agree with Huw.

pepper

Activist?

05.05.2006 10:32

"people do free things all the time that are fun, not just activists."

Well that makes the assumption that i consider myself an "activist", which unfortunately i don't. Activism in many forms (this was hardly representative of a lot of the actions i've taken part in) does play a part in my life, but by no means is it a defingin feature of who I am, nor is it something that takes up a lot of my time.

Saying you believe nothing will ever change is rather defeatist. Rather than playing the armchair cynic lambasting people for doing something, why not offer an alternative, a way of protest that us clearly deluded "half-activists" don't know about yet.*

*yes I am fully aware that this is cliched, but still very little of the entire arguement hasn't been.

Mime
mail e-mail: azran80@hotmail.com

Mayday07 decision

05.05.2006 11:59

Thank you all for your helpful, if critical, comments.

Taking all this advice into consideration, the Manchester Mayday07 Collective has decided to CANCEL ALL MAYDAY ACTIVITIES for next year.

There will be NO leafletting, NO Critical Mass, NO free film-showings, NO demonstration against nuclear power or climate change, NO free/donation-only gigs or parties, NO samba in the park, free food, shopping centre dancing, spontaneous demos or banner drops.

There will not even be a graffiti reading YOU CANNOT CANCEL MAYDAY!

Instead, we have decided to take a poll to determine what folks wanna do. Suggestions so far include:

1. Sleep
2. Work
3. Spend the day in pub
4. Spend the day in front of PC and wait for indymedia reports from London to appear in order to slag them off

Please post any other suggestions here, but remember two points are absolutly crucial:
MAYDAY MUST NOT BE FUN!!!!
YOU MUST NOT SPEND THE DAY WITH A FRIEND OR LIKEMINDED PERSON!!!

wankers

Mayday07 Collective

hmm

05.05.2006 12:35

yes its awful some of us actually have to work, rather than spending all our time organisind rad actions.

slagging these rubbish actions of is offering an alternative, dont do stuff if its like this. it makes people think your a bunch of nobbers.

but yeah, cancel mayday, wondefull idea! all of the 20 people that came will have to take their hippy subculture clique somewhere else.

because to be honest, dont try and make out like it would make people think, or change peoples minds, or that its anything great - and that if it didnt happen we would be oppressed by the man, and shit. just accept you like getting pissed with your mates, and that that is not neccesseraly a radical event.
but hey, as long as you keep in your clique surrounded by people who will agree with you (because if they didnt they could not be activists and therefore would have nothing to do with their lives and might actually have to go to work even though they have trust funds) then your pretty much ok.

huw

huw?

05.05.2006 13:33

huw, is that a vote for
2. cancel Mayday, and go to work instead?

was there

nah

05.05.2006 15:11

nah i want my bank holiday, but thats when i drive in my hummer and try and run over hippies, an stuff. innit. then i go and buy things, because things are ace!

huw

FFS DO SOMETHING!!

05.05.2006 15:55

so you had a nice day out in the park with your mates. Excellent. i do that every so often, don't post it on indymedia, but there you go. But since this was meant to be a political action i'd say its fair enough to ask what were you trying to/did you achive? You made people think? Think what though? That you're a bunch of drug addicts? not what i'd aim for, but you seem quite pleased with that. TBH i think the people of manchester are quite aware of the shit nature of capitalism without a bunch of students and a shitty banner to free them from the shackles of false conciousness, but i didn't see it in real life so maybe it was bind blowing.

and if the only response to criticism is hysterical cries of 'at least we're doing something noob!!!1!1!' or shouting at these terrible joyless people with their fancy book learning, then there's something wrong with the anarchist/activist scene. Whilest there's no internal criticism or self reflection in the anarchist scene beyond how something made you feel or you had fun, do you expect it to amount to anything more than a bunch of nobbers dancing to bad reggea?

So you did something. Brilliant. but what? you got a bunch of friends and like minded people together. Fair enough, its a good start if you then start thinking about what a small group of people can practically achive to gain greater control in were they live or improve their working conditions. But if you just want to delude yourself that Okey Cokeying outside urbis 'has a value in itself', well... that blatantly rubbish isn't it?

rob

maydays in manchester

05.05.2006 23:48

there have been mayday picnics before in manchester, last year was just a chill out in platt fields, the year before we did a picnic in piccadilly. i think the difference is that when we were in piccadilly we specifically did it around the way piccadilly has been 'stolen' from the public and about the way we are having our public space whittled out from under us by developers. we had a good time too but it had a serious point which some of the people around engaged in. we went and told people about piccadilly one etc as well as a bit about the history of that space and some people were interested. lots of people enjoyed the cake and popcorn we took round piccadilly. it wasn't a vague 'anti-capitalist' thing which doesn't really mean anything in reality.
thats the problem, that the report bigs it up into something it isn't. it sounds like you had a good time and thats fine but if it is to have any politic meaning then it needs to be rooted into something more accessible in time and place and less patronising than 'you are not your things'.

heather

further...

06.05.2006 10:40

more assumptions have been made, "part of a clique" cwould suggest we all know each other, This was my first Mayday weekend actually active in Manchester (previously having been elsewhere), and was the first time i'd actually spoken to most of the people out and about.

So it wasn't as radical or as politically orientated as some would wish, I met some people that i think would be interested in more radical or at least overtly anti-capitalist moves. A meet and greet as a prelude to further actions?

The drugs quote was put out because personally i found it funny that that was the assumption made instantly upon seeing people walking in the middle of the road with banners. People are small minded enough to assume the only way people would do such things is if they were on drugs (which for me at least wasn't the case (which makes a change))

And "you are not your things" is a personal belief, one I feel more people should adopt. It wasn't representative of what everyone thought i'm sure, but would all those winginging on above ^ have prefferred no banners at all? Any suggestions for better slogans?

Mime
mail e-mail: Azran80hotmail.com

further...

06.05.2006 10:40

more assumptions have been made, "part of a clique" cwould suggest we all know each other, This was my first Mayday weekend actually active in Manchester (previously having been elsewhere), and was the first time i'd actually spoken to most of the people out and about.

So it wasn't as radical or as politically orientated as some would wish, I met some people that i think would be interested in more radical or at least overtly anti-capitalist moves. A meet and greet as a prelude to further actions?

The drugs quote was put out because personally i found it funny that that was the assumption made instantly upon seeing people walking in the middle of the road with banners. People are small minded enough to assume the only way people would do such things is if they were on drugs (which for me at least wasn't the case (which makes a change))

And "you are not your things" is a personal belief, one I feel more people should adopt. It wasn't representative of what everyone thought i'm sure, but would all those winginging on above ^ have prefferred no banners at all? Any suggestions for better slogans?

Mime
mail e-mail: Azran80hotmail.com

and there you have it folks

06.05.2006 14:01

"People are small minded enough to assume the only way people would do such things is if they were on drugs (which for me at least wasn't the case (which makes a change)) "

and there we have it, if you dont understand why these people are walking in the street telling you you are not your things, or you dont get why people are dancing in a shop, or you simply cant understand what the purpose of 20 people wandering around manchester calling it an action is, then you people are small minded.

huw

???

07.05.2006 13:46

rob, huw, heather

seriously, i think some of your criticisms are valid, but why present them in such an antagonistic style?

-where did the figure "20 people" come from?
-why do you think we all knew each other?
-why slagging off an individual's banner?
-why do you think it was "bad" reggae?

Most of your criticims fit to so many other events/protests etc., for example critical mass, past mayday picnics, reclaim the streets parties, the worker's demo etc etc.

Why did you pick out this one? Are there personal reasons? Why was it ok for you to march with some trade union delegates from All Saints to Albert Square with a samba band and listen to Lord Mayor speeches, but it wasn't ok for us to march from Piccadilly to Chetham Library with a soundsystem and dance okey pokeys rather than listen to politicians speak to us??? What did you achieve this mayday?

We certainly got some people interested in anti-capitalist politics, and met some people who are new to it all but want to be involved. Why was that so different from your picnics in Platt Fields? Yes we did not say something particular about Piccadilly regeneration, but believe me, I wish we could have, but were busy making sandwiches, building soundsystems, flyering etc etc.
What did the bookfair achieve? What going to work? If you want to be self-critical why not start with yourselves? We welcome criticism, but rather than your predictable cynicism after the event, why did you not help us making sandwiches, play some samba, make a better banner, make some leaflets about regeneration, or whatever you would have liked to see. Why not make your criticism constructive?
The few people who tried to make something happen for mayday in Manchester tried so hard to include you guys into it all. We publicised the bookfair in endless flyering sessions at the university, same for the trades union march, we got together with a samba band and with antinuclear campaigners, we organised a gig for all those bookfair guests who wanted to come together afterwards, we got accommodation sorted out for people who came from outside Manchester and wanted to stay for the night.

I can't see what we did to provoke your provocations.

All it leads to is people reading your negative comments and never coming back. Fair enough if that is what you want to achieve???

raph

raph

07.05.2006 17:30

I thought my point was constructive criticism. I don’t think I was being antagonistic.

heather

Raph,

07.05.2006 20:33

Rhythms of Resistance Manchester marched on May 1st in solidarity with Asylum Seekers as an autonomous group and in remembrance of the workers that were killed. Yes the mayor made a speech - we didnot march in support of the mayor's speech; we were not there for that event, but we do support freedom of speech. Please do not involve us with whatever issues you guys have. We see marches as a statement and a chance to make people aware of our views; and as a very traditional mean of communication - nothing more; nothing less.
(if u want more specifically for samba and poilitics read about the afroblocs and their social struggles back in the 70's and also read about art and politics) we dont care if you donot agree to this mean of demonstration - we belive that giving a drive to such a march is a good thing.that is all - we ain't no hardcore houmous eating beast activists and we do not claim to be that.

what the main thing is, is that through your report, the message you passed on to mainstream people on Sunday was drug use. Hopefully next year it'll be something more informative bout our ideals? dunno...

PICNICS ARE GOOD to socialise and chill out - there were many before during the MayDay weekend; those before did not try to claim to be radical activism or radicalise humous eating and they did reach "mainstream" people in a positive way through celebration of free music and food. ?

CRITICAL MASS IS GOOD too! noone in here criticised it; have they? The comment entries look like they were for the Indymedia entry about the picnic.

THE ANTINUCLEAR DEMO WAS GOOD TOO! But yeah haven't heard anything bad bout it so hold yout horses.

Anyway, just cos you mentioned the samba band on Monday thought to clarify the Rhythms of Resistance MayDay involvement cos you aint gonna drag us in this argument.

PS if you want real radical houmus try the houmous that's like a soup served hot with bread pieces floating -now thats radical!

Io's personal view who plays in Rhythms of Resistance Band

ps

08.05.2006 10:03

oh forgot to rant bout that whole Marx big up reference- although i can see the communalism and collectivism points in marxism i also think it is time to give it up: Marxists-Leninists perpetuating authoritarianism. (now now anarho-syndicalists and anarcho-communists don't get on my case, cos as i said i do agree in communalism and collectivism). Ha! Wouldn't the world be a better place if individualism and humanity was celebrated instead of perpetuating misconceptions of anarchism (i.e. the "druggies" reference being made into a heroic thing).

Also, if you gonna separate and box into pigeonholes humans then big up the anarcha-feministas instead! la la la i'm off my head with this discussion. Wow, indymedia is better than a personal therapist.

erm, lastly, heather and rob and huw, i personally think it is inspiring to see u supporting asylum seekers/no border demos (whether officially organised or not) and all the other stuff u do - what am i saying - you are not supporting these, you are the soul of many movements. (i thought since i am publicly sharing my views i might as well go the whole way-wow it's therapeutic)

ok i got it off my chest. I'm going back in my shell to pointlessly bang them drums. Hope it all works out positively for us all cos at the end of the day we probably got more things in common than differences.

here's a samba tune for you all nihilists. hee hee ding ding dong dong in a loop!

io

response to raph

08.05.2006 11:37

"rob, huw, heather

seriously, i think some of your criticisms are valid, but why present them in such an antagonistic style?

-where did the figure "20 people" come from?"

Someone made it up, i dont know?

"-why do you think we all knew each other?"

because in this scene most people do

"-why slagging off an individual's banner?"

because i personally think its a banner that assumes the general public are think as shit, and need to be told completely obvious things

"-why do you think it was "bad" reggae?"

i think that was a joke, reggae is cool.

"Why did you pick out this one? Are there personal reasons? Why was it ok for you to march with some trade union delegates from All Saints to Albert Square with a samba band and listen to Lord Mayor speeches, but it wasn't ok for us to march from Piccadilly to Chetham Library with a soundsystem and dance okey pokeys rather than listen to politicians speak to us??? What did you achieve this mayday?"

Firstly, its not personal. And i didnt go on the other marches either. All im saying is that this sort of protest seems to me to be backfiring, and further pushing yourselves into your subculture.

"What did the bookfair achieve? What going to work? If you want to be self-critical why not start with yourselves? We welcome criticism, but rather than your predictable cynicism after the event, why did you not help us making sandwiches, play some samba, make a better banner, make some leaflets about regeneration, or whatever you would have liked to see. Why not make your criticism constructive?
The few people who tried to make something happen for mayday in Manchester tried so hard to include you guys into it all."

I understand this raph, i know we could have come and helped. personally i didnt want to, because i knew that it would have ended up being like this. and i dont want to be assosiated with such 'actions'. mainly becuause it alienates the audience, makes people jubious, and makes me more cynical.
I would not get involved because i dont believe it could be constructive, not for me or the audience.
and if you want to talk personal, well, i find 'activism' or aleternative groups in manchester, or anywhere, a strange thing.
It seems of course, its a group of mates. Not this is fine, i have groups of mates. the thing is that these mates create such things as non-hierarchical organisation, good in theory, but in action ist seems to be false. as people we hang out in groups, and these groups have informal hierarchies. activist groups have many, and ive been involved, ive done stuff. but ive been disatisfied about these structures.
not because they are there, but because: people wont admit them.
i find this ultimatly frustrating. if peopel admited that they existed and started working towards sorting them out, or looking for solutions, maybe id be involved again. but instead, its a little subculture that i do not in any way feel a part of. which is a shame. but it doesnt mean i have lost my anger, and it doesnt mean i dont care.

I sit here and critisise, but i think quite rightly. rob mentioned self reflection,. or self awareness.
i think this is the key thing that needs to happen before i become involved again. and i think its maybe why lots of people drop out of the 'scene'. because of the fact, it is a ;scene', with every characteristic of any other social group. only difference being because its a social group with these idealistic ideas, it thinks itself seperate from these characteristic. its not! its entirely the same.

So, yes we critisise. its not personal, its about how this is structured. Well done for putting the work in, i would do it differently but then thats just me. its better to retaliate with criticism how you did than MIME, who just seems to shout and get hysterical.
also i find it slightly annoying that people say "why arent you doing anything?"
just becuase im not involved in a group, and just because i dont post pics on indymedia of any actions ive done, doesnt mean i dont 'do things'. its just all in the definition. i feel i actually do quite alot.

huw

io, you got it completely wrong

08.05.2006 11:37

io, i never mentioned rythms of resistance. I'm not drawing you in at all.
i talked of a samba group on Sunday, that wasn't you.

I also never criticised critical mass. and never said you did. same for the antinuclear demo. what made you think so?

by the way, the antinuclear demo and the mayday picnic were very very similar, just more people on mayday.

why do you make this split between people at picnic and people at worker's/asylum seekers marches? Many picnic'ers were ALSO at those marches.

seems like you are making a good protester/bad protester distinction here.

p.s. heather, yes thank you, so far you were the only one to make a suggestion how to do it better.

raph

well..

08.05.2006 12:25

I put the drugs quote forward to show misconceptions within society about people who perhaps do not fit the norm of a Manchester shopper of a sunday afternoon (yes i know im falling foul of exactly the same trap they did). The assumption was made by ONE individual, and passed to another, that perhaps such a collection of people would only have amassed due to the influence of drugs.

I doubt very much the individual in question made that assumption on the spot having seen us, it more than likely came from experience of earlier demo's/actions/congregations where drugs WERE present. Therefore is it not apt to conclude that it was past actions tainting this one rather than this being the low point of activism?

as for the banner, it wasn't ontended to represent the group, it was intended to represent my own, autonomous, belief. I'm sorry if it wasn't quite radical/clear/new enough for some, but then they don't have to agree do they?

Mime
mail e-mail: azran80@hotmail.com

well..

08.05.2006 12:25

I put the drugs quote forward to show misconceptions within society about people who perhaps do not fit the norm of a Manchester shopper of a sunday afternoon (yes i know im falling foul of exactly the same trap they did). The assumption was made by ONE individual, and passed to another, that perhaps such a collection of people would only have amassed due to the influence of drugs.

I doubt very much the individual in question made that assumption on the spot having seen us, it more than likely came from experience of earlier demo's/actions/congregations where drugs WERE present. Therefore is it not apt to conclude that it was past actions tainting this one rather than this being the low point of activism?

as for the banner, it wasn't ontended to represent the group, it was intended to represent my own, autonomous, belief. I'm sorry if it wasn't quite radical/clear/new enough for some, but then they don't have to agree do they?

Mime
mail e-mail: azran80@hotmail.com

Taken well seriously...

08.05.2006 12:54

Can see but two cops in your photos. Looks like the police REALLY took you guys seriously!

Nonymice

raph, seems u cant remember ur own entries

08.05.2006 13:03

"Why was it ok for you to march with some trade union delegates from All Saints to Albert Square with a samba band and listen to Lord Mayor speeches..."

Raph this is what you wrote and this is what i was refering to! the band that marched at the trade union march from all saints to albert square was Rhythms of Resistance. You are the one you made separations between protesters. May be next time try to remember what you post!! Why imply that that march was not ok. Get real.

io

....

08.05.2006 13:10

oh raph,

you refered to the samba band on the Monday march (as quoted in previous entry) then you denied that you referred to it and when we just wanted to clear our position you accuse us of separating protestors!

Me thinks you r t stirring shit. All we want is to clear our MayDay involvement from all this shit!If people mention us then we reply. As mentioned earlier we like picnics and everything else.

io

raph

08.05.2006 13:28

ok i made some cheap shots at your expense, but considering the ridiculous nature of some of the comments posted it was too much of an oppotunity to resist. But that doesn't negate the perfectly fair criticism that's been directed at the event.

Much of this crticism could fit other activist/anti-capitalist, true enough. That's why i don't have much enthusiasm to get inolved in the anarchist scene and why we need a debate and reflection what it is we are trying to achive beyond pissing about with our mates.

As for the trade union march, i supported that cos it had a clearer political message, highlighting mayday as a act of workers resistance and the fact that thousands of immigrants are denied the right to work or imprisoned when they do work. It wasn't perfect no, and i don't particularly wish to listen to the lord mayor or trots promote their political parties, but i went along inspite of that not beacuase of it.

and " What did you achieve this mayday?" Well i help raise about 100 quid for the national coalition for anti-deportation campaigns, but that isn't the point. I'm not criticising anyone as an individual here, but a collective political action. The activist guilt complex of 'what i did to defeat capitalism/stick it to the man/ save the world' is entirelly counter-productive as it merely individualises collective problems.

Why i've criticised this event? well pleanty of people have stated them before but if you want a recap
- elitism shown to the public. The idea that people need to be encouraged to 'think'. Well unless you're under the impression that the people of machester have achived a level of zen mastery, well its pretty hard not to think. I'm of the opinion that most people agree with the basics of my politcal outlook; they don't like working all there lifes, having no control over the areas where they live, be ordered arond by bosses or managers that no less than they do or having no control over the productive process that's destroying the natural environment. The reason people don't get involved in radical politics i because it has no releavnce to their everyday lives, not because a free vegan butties, a soundsystem or crazy freeform dancing weren't available to make them 'think'. And dismissing people that don't understand you esoteric activities as 'small minded' is just elitist bullshit IMO.
- lack of any clear politcal message. a word of advice- think of the purpose you want to achive and positive message you want to get across before you start making the sandwiches, building a soundsystem etc. A demonstration does what it says on the tin; it demostrates something, your collective anger with something, a show of solidarity or strenght. Yet some people involved seem to be gleeful about the fact they were misunderstood and taken for a bunch of junkies.
- a complete unwillingness to deal with cricisim beyond saying 'atleast we're doing something mannn'

So yeah, i could have got involved and helped out. But over hearing the initail discussion that the satuarday club/ducie group had inclueding the brilliant idea of "why don't we run down market st with banners, the polcie wouldn't know what was going on!!! of course old people and children couldn't take part, but it'd be chaos. and disorgantions is our greatest strenght". i mean FFS, when ideas of such breathtaking idocy circulate freely i really strain to find much commonality with fellow 'anarchist'.

rob

beyond the hurt feelings and er..lively nature of some comments

08.05.2006 16:42

this is quite a serious debate that needs to be had on the manchester 'scene'. i think its quite a good thing to get it out in the open. i wish i felt it could have some resolution which would benefit what we do so that we do connect with people more in ways that have relevance to people's everyday lives. its not enough to do what makes us feel good, the purpose of the demo, the way we communicate, the relevance of what we say is key to calling what we do 'political'.

mime, i'm sorry you're so pissed off over the comments re your banner. it may be your own opinion, and of course you have a right to hold that opinion, but the fact remains that on a demo, what is written on your banner is taken as representative of the views of the people demonstrating (especially with it being a small demo) and therefore its cruicial that what is written there is engaging and inclusive. at the end of the day, its just a banner and i'm not meaning to have a go at you atall. i do get fed up though with the attitude i've seen in the past, that 'mainstream' people somehow don't grasp fairly simple concepts and that is what i meant by saying i thought it was patronising.

heather

won't keep repeating points already made but i just want to answer this:

08.05.2006 17:37

"All it leads to is people reading your negative comments and never coming back. Fair enough if that is what you want to achieve???"

i think its obvious that that is not what the majority of people posting here want to achieve and surely, if anything, an ability to self-reflect on what we do and consider and re-consider what we are trying to achieve and how best to achieve it, displayed openly, should attract people rather than send them away? its not in-fighting or bitching with no purpose. i'd hope that, seeing that we can at least talk about our differences, new people would feel able to participate in a way which could be used to create solidarity and more positive action, attracting more people, not just young people who more or less fit into a relatively recognisible youth sub-culture, which is fairly alienating to a lot of other people who as rob said don't like working all there lifes, have no control over the areas where they live, are ordered arond by bosses or managers and have no control over the productive process that's destroying the natural environment. and they know it too. just as much as anyone on the mayday picnic does. surely anykind of real challenge to capitalism has to come from people of all different ages and experiences or its just pissing in the wind? so i think it matters more for example, that theres a comment about drugtakers which shows alienation from the mayday picnic protest from a woman who, presumeably, isn't likely to be part of the youth sub-culture and that that comment is treated lightly, than that we are having this debate openly on indymedia.

heather

...

09.05.2006 08:37

With regard to the banner, whilst others may have felt alienated by my lighthearted and simple message (it has to be simple to fit on a bit of cloth and to be read) does the same not go for all the other banners. "Smash Dalton" is a clear message to anyone with a reasonable knowledge of the Nuclear issue, but not quite so meaningful if you have no interest in the subject. how is it known that everyone on the picnic was anti-nuclear power? or for the climate camp? there was an anarchist flag flying, and It;d be a cold day in hell before i termed myself a full blown anarchist.

I attended 6 events over the mayday weekend, and attempted to get to know people, if the Manchester scene is always so backbiting, with criticism and little constructive contribution i'll just continue my autonomous subverts and leave the big demo's to those who clearly know far more, but are just far too busy to do anything about it.

mime
mail e-mail: azran80@hotmail.com

...

09.05.2006 08:37

With regard to the banner, whilst others may have felt alienated by my lighthearted and simple message (it has to be simple to fit on a bit of cloth and to be read) does the same not go for all the other banners. "Smash Dalton" is a clear message to anyone with a reasonable knowledge of the Nuclear issue, but not quite so meaningful if you have no interest in the subject. how is it known that everyone on the picnic was anti-nuclear power? or for the climate camp? there was an anarchist flag flying, and It;d be a cold day in hell before i termed myself a full blown anarchist.

I attended 6 events over the mayday weekend, and attempted to get to know people, if the Manchester scene is always so backbiting, with criticism and little constructive contribution i'll just continue my autonomous subverts and leave the big demo's to those who clearly know far more, but are just far too busy to do anything about it.

mime
mail e-mail: azran80@hotmail.com

reflecting

09.05.2006 11:37

Mime, i don't think the solution is for people to give up doing things or sticking to familiar stuff or for events to be cancelled.

i personally think that the problem is that some criticised an event. the people who organised it got upset/angry/defensive (probably cos they put their souls/efforts/time in it) and compared it with other things (i.e. organised trade union marches) - that had a knock on effect into upsetting people involved at the "organised" march. the result was conflict.

May be what we all should take on board is points from all these entries:

1) to have clear aims about events (what do we want to achieve? What do we want to project)
2) how we want to communicate our message (?banners, ?music, ?flyers, conversations)
3) Who are we trying to reach? (i.e. are we trying to reach "mainstream" people?)
4) Who are we trying to involve? (us, our group, the public, children?)
5) What's our impact on the people around us (i.e. are we scaring kids :-) )

Like Mime, Rhythms of Resistance is a new group and by any means we do not wish to seem like we know activism cos we don't. We want to carefully consider our involvement with events hence the entry reply on Raph's slightly negative comment on the trade union march.

Anyway, i think this whole indymedia 38 plus entries should be seen as a positive reflection especially since a lot of individuals and groups got involved in a discussion. I ve learnt some :-)

io

io on a sunny day

its simple really

09.05.2006 12:22

dont be silly!

huw

x

09.05.2006 14:26

"Please post any other suggestions here, but remember two points are absolutly crucial:
MAYDAY MUST NOT BE FUN!!!!
YOU MUST NOT SPEND THE DAY WITH A FRIEND OR LIKEMINDED PERSON!!!

wankers "

aw, why? because we dont agree with you?

x

hee hee!

09.05.2006 14:48

:-) I was just trying to be nice and inclusive! Silly's good anyway :-p

io

x back at u

09.05.2006 16:00

X:

oooooo, getting aggro again? i think it's them teenage hormones! Anyway there was lots of MayDay fun at the march on monday with lots of similar minded people.... mwahahaha! it's bizarre, when u get the criticisms you can't handle it and you victimise yourselves and when people try to be more sensitive cos you victimise yourself, you get aggro.

maybe you need counselling?

Have some love, it'll make you feel wam inside

xx

x back at u

bangs head on brick wall

09.05.2006 16:00

to the person who called us "wankers" twice

noone ever said mayday must not be fun and to be honest with that level of debate, i give up. you don't want to talk about some of the serious points raised. so i'll leave it at that.

io

1) to have clear aims about events (what do we want to achieve? What do we want to project)
2) how we want to communicate our message (?banners, ?music, ?flyers, conversations)
3) Who are we trying to reach? (i.e. are we trying to reach "mainstream" people?)
4) Who are we trying to involve? (us, our group, the public, children?)
5) What's our impact on the people around us (i.e. are we scaring kids :-) )

i agree. :-)

heather

oops

09.05.2006 16:09

just reread the comment from x and i think i got it the wrong way round. sorry. unfortunately theres no edit function on indymedia :-(
now i'm going out to play in the sun :-)

heather

X & all

09.05.2006 16:29

X, it's your mother here! Mind your language and stop being stupid.

Let's face it, Io 's trying to be nice cos Io's probably a softie hippy you feels bad about hurting people but at the end of the day the picnic action was plain STUPID! Io just say it - "the picnic was stupid"

But may be you young people, should all stop the messaging because you made RAPH and MIME cry and that's not nice.

Now ALL OF YOU come home and wash your hair AND behind your ears too. As for you, Heather, a grown up woman should not be encouraging this kind of stuff.

see you at home X,

love, your mummy.

a concerned mother

i think people are confused.

09.05.2006 18:46

I did not write wankers, that was a quote from 'the mayday collective' whover they (you) are.

so, i am not getting agro. and i dont need councelling. i think its you who needs councelling, and lots of it.
and im not even a teenager anymore! hahaha! im like, totally through puberty! i can (almost*) grow a beard*
and like, i dont even have wet dreams anymore* so suck on that ya bitches.

*lie

x

my last post on this

11.05.2006 18:11

I wrote a rather lengthy response to the criticisms a few days ago but apparently it did not come up. So here's it again and that's it:

io- "Raph's slightly negative comment on the trade union march" and "you are drawing us in": I'm sorry you feel like I drew you in or criticised the Monday demo. On the contrary. True, I mentioned samba at the Monday demo, but just as a fact, not a critique, to highlight that it is not enough to shout "music creates a sub-culture etc", cause clearly everyone was not pissed off with the workers demo. Anyway, i think you missunderstood me entirely and therefore here again clearly: I think RoR are great and so was the Monday demo!!!

heather and rob -thanks for beginning to write some less cynical but nonetheless critical responses. I agree totally that we need to stop doing "activism for activism's sake" and reflect about our aims in the Manchester scene.
But then, you want to avoid building a scene in the first place, so difficult to discuss this then, is it?
I maintain that your approach (not getting involved, but then attacking people as soon as they got together on Sunday, including personal attacks) was rubbish. It has obviously backfired if so many people feel disempowered by the way you criticise them, with the knowledge of only 1 indymedia report. One can criticise without being offensive, you know!

the police comment- yeah, thankfully the police let us do what we wanted all weekend, but that's GOOD and not BAD news

I would defend the Sunday event, dispite the valuable critiques:

1. For, in style, not being too different to the Saturday and Monday demos ( and noone was offended by them)
2. For having a generic critique against capital (rather than for worker's, immigrants' rights, or against regeneration). We did not want to demonstrate against the manifestations or symptoms of capital but against capital itself. Obviously, this is no direct challenge to the system, and it was never meant to be, but face it we're not gonna have a revolution next week
3. For having fun! Mayday is a celebration, remember!

P.S. the drug comment is the only negative I've heard of, dozens of other people were very positive and even joined in for a bit, so forget your argument of "you scared the kids"

raph

awww

12.05.2006 10:08

awww bless!

last word

oi

12.05.2006 16:59

its my last word!

word up, yo.

huw

Last words

13.05.2006 16:09

>>I agree totally that we need to stop doing "activism for activism's sake" and reflect about our aims in the Manchester scene.
But then, you want to avoid building a scene in the first place, so difficult to discuss this then, is it?

there's a differnce between a scene, basically a youth sub-culture, and a politcal movement effective political movment that's able to reflect on what it's trying to achive and capable of self-criticism.

>> I maintain that your approach (not getting involved, but then attacking people as soon as they got together on Sunday, including personal attacks) was rubbish.

first off- who have i attacked personally? secondly, you're saying the only criticism you would accept is from people involved in the event itself? It's also ignoring why people didn't get involved in planning the event in the first place.

>> For having a generic critique against capital (rather than for worker's, immigrants' rights, or against regeneration). We did not want to demonstrate against the manifestations or symptoms of capital but against capital itself. Obviously, this is no direct challenge to the system, and it was never meant to be, but face it we're not gonna have a revolution next week

Whoever claimed we would have a revolution next week??? But could you explain what you mean by a 'generic critique against capital'? To my mind that phrase is so vauge it ends up meaning 'being against the system, man" ie no critique of capital at all. What is capitalism beyond its 'manifestations or sympotms'? And i'd hardly dismiss work as a symptom of capitalism, but pretty central to it, don't you think?

>> 3. For having fun! Mayday is a celebration, remember!

or remember that May day is a commemoration of the Haymarket Riot, and show of working class power and the achivement of the labour movment. Sure it can be fun, but without the political content how is it any different from any other public holiday?

rob

what it is

19.05.2006 11:31

jerry jerry jerry

I think this thread really shows how crap the internet is at communicating construtively. It's just too easy to nit pick and get defensive.

I think it would be great to have a Jerry Springer style Event at the Basement social centre.

If I wasn't going away I would seriously offer to organise it for the film night on the 31st.

Would you all be up for it?
It would be sooo coooool!

Mick

mickfuzz
mail e-mail: mick@undercurrents.org
Homepage: http://www.clearerchannel.org

you go girl

23.05.2006 22:38

sounds like a laugh

rob

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