UK Indymedia | Stop the BNP picket April 6th

Free speech

14.03.2005 00:04

The BNP do not need to be kept off our streets. If you believe that the only reason that the BNP has not been elected to any positions of power is because its message has been kept off the streets then it follows that you believe that if its message was not kept off the streets it would have a good chance of power. Is that the opinion you hold of your fellow countrypeople? Anti-libertarians such as you should allow all opinions to be expressed on the streets so that everyone has the best chance to decide between all the candidates available. How would you react if some group of people decided to keep your opinion off the streets? We should allow all views, however repellent to us personally to be expressed on the streets. The electorate can then make a free choice. If any faction, however right wing or left wing is banned, some of the the electorate will be condemned to make a choice from a limited point of views. I get the feeling that some people think they know what kind of opinions should be freely expressed and what kind of opinions shouldnt be. In the old days, that was called fascism or communism. Don't seek to stop others professing their beliefs, just get out there and tell everyone of yours. Let everyone express their political views freely, then vote in secret how you wish.

les

Never Again!

15.03.2005 18:05

Six Million people went to gas-chambers because of liberal idiots like this. Not that he probably feels under much of a threat from fascists, unlike the asylum seekers who get spat at in the street, are attacked, and have their windows put through because of the BNP's fascist politics. Or the many blacks, Asians, and Gay people who've been attacked, beaten-up, and even killed by fascists in this country. The current electoralist phase of the BNP is nothing but a tactic, it's only a decade ago Griffin & co were advocating Bologna-style bombs and bullets, along with the far more recently advocated "boots and fist" approach. Fascism needs to be confronted wherever it rears it's ugly head, and white liberals who stick their heads in the sand because it's not their windows that are being broken, or their kids that are being attacked by racists, are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

No Pasaran!

Anti-Fascist

Liberal hippy crap...

16.03.2005 00:13

Facsists openly organising on the streets is a direct attack on the british working class, and as such, we should fight back. Yeah, they might just be leafletting (as opposed to say pouring dog excreta through asian peoples's letter-boxes or some similarly intelligent act) but that's not the point.

While obviously most people in this country treat the BNP as offensive / a joke, their presence in party politics gives legitmacy to increasingly right-wing measures from mainstream parties... New Labour's naked racism in regard to refugees for example, looks quite liberal in comparison to Griffin and co, yet its still obscene. The BNP not only affect the (thankfully as yet limited) commumnities they operate in, but they help to push the political spectrum further to the right.

All this 'free speech' crap comes across as nothing more than a gutless attempt at justifying your apathy. If you open your eyes and get out of your closeted middle-class tie-dye ghetto, you might realise that dealing with these scum is vitally important. This sort of ill-conceived naivete is kind of attitude that holds back progressive politics in this country... and if effective action / confrontation offends your tender sensebilities, then look at it this way - we do it to them or they do it to us, and while you might be happy to sip your herbal tea and muse over the coverage in The Guardian, I want to DO something to get rid of these bastards.

YORKSHIRE R.A.S.H. SKIN

freedom of speech? dont make me laugh

16.03.2005 00:35

your liberal comments about freedom of speech are laudable,Do you really think the likes of the[ Fascist bnp] would give the likes of Indymedia[ meaning you], the right to free speach, fuck you and the bnp, it was people like you that stood back and let the brown shirts come to power in the 1930's, we know where that ended. fascism didn't start in the gas chambers, that's where it ended ,

angry gnome

More free speech

16.03.2005 17:13

Why are you three afraid of the BNP putting across its message? Are you afraid you might be persuaded to vote for them? I think not. You are afraid that other people might vote for them - other people not as clever, politically aware and morally correct as you. I think you are elitists who think you know what's best for other people. The British electorate does not need protection from people like you or the BNP or any other extreme party.

les

Freedom of speech

16.03.2005 21:36

bolton seem to be doing ok

http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/lancashire/bolton/news/BENTOPNEWS0.html

Fascist need understanding and tollerance

Me Thinks The Wanker Protesteth Too Much

16.03.2005 22:56

It isn't the 'British electorate'or middle-class, white, liberal idiots that are under threat from the fascist policies of the BNP. Why don't you admit it Les, it doesn't affect you, so you couldn't give a toss about the people who ARE threatened by fascist organisations, and you're trying to mask your apathy, and your cowardice, under this very thin veneer of liberal bollocks. The BNP certainly have nothing to fear from mugs like you.

Anti-Fascist

bnp bollocks

17.03.2005 01:10

seems simple to me. in the most simplistic way, freedom of speech is for people that would not wish to take that freedom of speech away from others. what else is there?

zero

Please Mr Anti-fascist, who can I vote for?

17.03.2005 01:32

If elitists like you are allowed to get political parties they don't agree with 'off the streets', then their freedom and free speech are reduced. What most people realise, but you don't seem to, is that freedom and free speech means sometimes having to listen to opinions you don't like, or seeing people doing things you don't aprove of. Unless a law is being broken, we grin and bear it. The people of Britain don't need clever people like you to reduce their choices. We are all free to vote for anyone, or to stand for election and ask people to vote for us. Under your system, we'll only have a choice from the organisations you like and approve of. How gracious of you. Like most political elitists, you've decided that the people can't be totally trusted to choose to vote properly, so it's your duty to step in and restrict their choice so the possibility of a 'wrong' result is removed. Are you a member of a new master race who are always right about everything?

les

You're wrong Les

17.03.2005 11:05

The BNP do not need to be kept off our streets. If you believe that the only reason that the BNP has not been elected to any positions of power is because its message has been kept off the streets then it follows that you believe that if its message was not kept off the streets it would have a good chance of power. Is that the opinion you hold of your fellow countrypeople? Anti-libertarians such as you should allow all opinions to be expressed on the streets so that everyone has the best chance to decide between all the candidates available. How would you react if some group of people decided to keep your opinion off the streets? We should allow all views, however repellent to us personally to be expressed on the streets. The electorate can then make a free choice. If any faction, however right wing or left wing is banned, some of the the electorate will be condemned to make a choice from a limited point of views. I get the feeling that some people think they know what kind of opinions should be freely expressed and what kind of opinions shouldnt be. In the old days, that was called fascism or communism. Don't seek to stop others professing their beliefs, just get out there and tell everyone of yours. Let everyone express their political views freely, then vote in secret how you wish.

Domination of a physical space is one of the ways of intimidating people. The last march I went on, after local BNP councillors were elected (with my 80 year old mother, who, fought the fucking nazis in the war) was at least partly to show to the Asian people of that area that here was a white person who was willing to take over the town centre in their defence, at least for a while.

Just use your imagination for a while and think what it's like to be Black/Asian/Gay/Jewish and watch a BNP march go past. Physical presence is important. And the BNP is one we don't want. Let them stay at home with their Hitler posters. And their utterly non-sensical 'politics'.

Sorry, there is no moral, philosophical or political equivalence between the 'far right' and the 'far left'. This isn't a debating chamber where reasonable people put forward opposing views and other reasonable people consider them, then walk away thinking to themselves 'well there were good arguments on both sides'. The far right can't be called 'politics'. It's just hatred and thuggery with a rosette on.

That's what the original question was about. I suppose it's OK for them to stand at elections. But to be honest I'm not to sure abut that.

'We should allow all views, however repellent to us personally to be expressed on the streets.' - you say. Let me think then, the Jews should be gassed, women are only fit for shagging, etc. etc. These are just 'views' aren't they? So, any 'views' whatsoever? How about, 'I think we should go and kick in some Paki's, right now'. Is that just a view, an opinion?

'then vote in secret how you wish' - while you've still got a chance. That'll be the first thing they stop.

I hate to use this phrase, but the 'real world' isn't about debates, arguments, respect for others' opinions and such like. It's not a game. The sick culture of the BNP and that lot makes many people's lives a misery, here, today in your Britain. They need opposing wherever they appear, including physically on the streets of OUR country (not theirs).

Frank

You're wrong Les

17.03.2005 11:06

Domination of a physical space is one of the ways of intimidating people. The last march I went on, after local BNP councillors were elected (with my 80 year old mother, who, fought the fucking nazis in the war) was at least partly to show to the Asian people of that area that here was a white person who was willing to take over the town centre in their defence, at least for a while.

Just use your imagination for a while and think what it's like to be Black/Asian/Gay/Jewish and watch a BNP march go past. Physical presence is important. And the BNP is one we don't want. Let them stay at home with their Hitler posters. And their utterly non-sensical 'politics'.

Sorry, there is no moral, philosophical or political equivalence between the 'far right' and the 'far left'. This isn't a debating chamber where reasonable people put forward opposing views and other reasonable people consider them, then walk away thinking to themselves 'well there were good arguments on both sides'. The far right can't be called 'politics'. It's just hatred and thuggery with a rosette on.

That's what the original question was about. I suppose it's OK for them to stand at elections. But to be honest I'm not to sure abut that.

'We should allow all views, however repellent to us personally to be expressed on the streets.' - you say. Let me think then, the Jews should be gassed, women are only fit for shagging, etc. etc. These are just 'views' aren't they? So, any 'views' whatsoever? How about, 'I think we should go and kick in some Paki's, right now'. Is that just a view, an opinion?

'then vote in secret how you wish' - while you've still got a chance. That'll be the first thing they stop.

I hate to use this phrase, but the 'real world' isn't about debates, arguments, respect for others' opinions and such like. It's not a game. The sick culture of the BNP and that lot makes many people's lives a misery, here, today in your Britain. They need opposing wherever they appear, including physically on the streets of OUR country (not theirs).

Frank

You said it, Frank

17.03.2005 13:25

'This isn't a debating chamber where reasonable people put forward opposing views and other reasonable people consider them'

No, it's place where elitists congratulate each other about how they've protected the people of Britain from their nasty selves. I'm sure the BNP are very happy that clever people like you consider it acceptable to shove political opposition 'off the streets'. It seems to me that you and the BNP might have more in common than you realise.

les

Which side are you on?

17.03.2005 16:12

OK. Have a look at the BNP site, the NF site, the Redwatch site. Especially Redwatch. Follow some of the links to B&H etc. Ask yourself whether those are fair and reasonable people whose opinions are worthy of consideration. Ask yourself whether it actually consitutes politics.

You didn't answer. Which of those gratuitously offensive opinions (the ones I made up) are OK to be expressed? Or is the opinion that all people called Les should be taken out and shot an OK opinion to express? I'm serious. You seem to have some sort of idealised notion of free speech and how it'll be OK because the 'electorate' will decide. Tell me, where is the line you would draw about which opinions are allowed to be expressed?

As long as it's not breaking the law? Well incitement to racial hatred is a crime (one which Nick Griffin is awaiting trial for) but not that long ago it wasn't. And you know what? People like you would have said that we didn't need it, because 'oh of course nobody takes it seriously'... etc. etc.

I'm not part of any 'elite'. Where did you get that idea? You're reading a great deal more into this than actually exists. This is the first time I've posted here. I'm not a member of any political party. I'm not a union activist. But I believe in showing solidarity and expressing my views. I will support the ANL in their activities, especially by demonstrating. Because at the moment they seem like the largest organisation involved in direct, highly visible opposition to the BNP. Visit their site. The next time there's a demonstration why don't you go on it? To show you oppose the BNP. Unless you support the BNP of course. Or perhaps you'd just rather 'think' about it. Combat 18 and the others who want to beat my family up love people like you. Thinkers they can deal with.

I was drawn to investigate on line far right activities a few days ago when I saw a relative on the redwatch site. It's perfectly clear what the point of that site is.

As far as the BNP and fellow travellers are concerned I can't see the debate. They're an evil, ugly, nasty bunch of fascists who love it when people like you quote the Rousseau nonsense at them. They need to be opposed in every way at every opportunity.

Fascists - you're with 'em or you're against 'em.

Frank

Oh dear.

17.03.2005 19:47

This fools rambling about "freedom of speech" reminds me of Gerry Adams squeaking "Sinn Fein is a legitimate political party!" for some reason.

Anyway, sounds like BNP sympathising rather than 'liberal' to me. When was the last time a liberal denied knowledge of the BNP's illegal activity or rather, dismissed the topic as if it never existed?

Hugh Jass

You're More Than Wrong Les

17.03.2005 22:59

Les is clearly a fascist apologist, at least. Something he seems too clueless to realise is that electoralism is just a tactic currently being used by the BNP. Even they aren't stupid enough to think they'll be forming the next government. But putting up electoral candidates gives them new opportunities to spread their fascist poison and push the mainstream political parties even further to the Right, it gives them access to party political TV broadcasts, and to influence communities who know they have been betrayed by New Labour, offering them simplistic solutions to why they're unemployed and living in poverty - ie because the Asians have stolen all their jobs, and asylum seekers get the best housing - Concepts which don't hold up to much honest scutiny, but which Les regards as quite legitimate 'free speech'. Whenever the fascists manage to achieve any form of street presence, either through electoralism or through terror, attacks on Black and Asian families, on gay pubs, on synagogues, and Jewish cemeteries escalate - People's houses are set on fire, they're stabbed, beaten, and even killed. Asian shopkeepers in areas the BNP are able to mobilise are terrorised. This couldn't be better documented, so don't pretend it's news to you Les. But you think it's OK, because you seem to think the BNP have something legitimate to say. You have blood on your hands already.

But what's this drivel anyway. Most people have absolutely no control over their lives, and voting Labour or Tory will make absolutely no difference to them. Who are they going to vote for, racist New Labour, racist Tories, the fascist BNP, or one or other tiny fringe group who don't own the press. That isn't any kind of choice. You talk about 'freedom of speech' Les as if we lived in a representative democracy, not a Police State which imprisons people without trial, and has the power to lock people in their own homes without even offering any evidence against them. Being given a chance to put a cross on a piece of paper every 4 or 5 years is not democracy, it's window-dresing, a circus. And with the drivel you've been posting on this site Les, trying to distract anti-fascists from mobilising against the BNP, you're more than a clown, you're scum. Why don't you start posting to the BNP or WNP sites instead?

Anti-Fascist

Still In Denial?

17.03.2005 23:38

Check out how many pictures of Adolf Hitler and quotes from Mein Kampf have been posted on the White Nationalist Party website's guestbook over the past 2 days alone. Here's what they think of 'democracy':

"MY PHILOSOPHY BRINGS THE TRIUMPANT IDEA OF WHICH ALL OTHER MODES OF THOUGHT WILL ULTIMATELY PERISH. IT IS THE GREAT CULTIVATING IDEA: THE RACES THAT CANNOT BEAR IT STAND CONDEMNED: THOSE WHO FIND IT THE GREATEST BENEFIT ARE CHOSEN TO RULE."

But then even Les can't be clueless enough never to have heard of the Holocaust (unless he's in denial about that too) - Not just Jews, but gypsies, black people, trade unionists, communists, socialists, anarchists, even liberals.

As Hitler admitted, if the Nazis had been confronted and smashed in their earliest days, they would have got nowhere, millions of people wouldn't have been slaughtered in the most degrading manner possible. But no doubt there was some German equivalents of Les rattling on about 'free speech' while whole sections of the German working-class were already being transported to concentration camps.

Anti-fascists aren't an 'elite' Les, there are millions of us all over the world, and we're determined that this Never happen Again.

Anti-Fascist

Les go buy a guardian and eat some flap jack

18.03.2005 11:44

Les liberal tossers like you make me sick with your pious pompous moaning and your general ability to do naf all. Go do some yoghurt weaving and falp jack baking and leave the anti fascist work to those with committment, courage and the ability not to jump on every liberal band wagon. Go wave a banner and buy a white arm band to make poverty history. We dont need your support or approval.

Herbert Read

It's already 'Happening Again'

19.03.2005 13:38

Mr Anti-Fascist, people like you remind me of Hitler or Stalin. Like them, you know you are correct to stop political opposition from expressing its beliefs. I suggest you apply for Mr Castro's job when it becomes vacant. It'd suit you down to the ground.

Mr Herbert Read, if you read my posts carefully it should be fairly obvious that I'm not offering you my 'support or approval'. I disapprove of you and your kind. You want to silence people you don't approve of. Fascists have a track record of doing that.

I suggest you, Mr Anti-fascist and Mr Herbert Read, in your infinite wisdom, are gracious enough to let the BNP remain on the streets. Perhaps the BNP's total lack of political power in this country can be explained by the fact that it is successful in getting its message across to the Great British electorate. I doubt you will agree with this interpretation. You, in your elitist way, assume that if the BNP gets its message across, more people are likely to vote for it. That is the low opinion you have of your fellow citizens. It's only a short jump from having a low opinion of most other people to believing oneself to be part of a chosen few, or 'master race'. And we all know where that can lead, don't we?

Les

So what's the answer...

19.03.2005 14:47

...to the original question?

What plans are there to oppose the BNP on April 6th?

And what are the BNP planning anyway, and why?

Frank

Fuck You Les

19.03.2005 17:05

It says a lot about you Les that you can't distinguish between anti-fascists and Hitler, you're either a Grade A moron, or you're just a closet Nazi, either way you're a time-waster. Anti-fascists aren't going to abandon their principles, and let Nazis organise, because of a fucking tosser like you. Why don't you shove your head a bit further up your own arse and break your neck?

Anti-Fascist

Ooh! You're so rude

19.03.2005 19:38

aren't you Mr Anti-fascist? I'm so pleased you've shown your true colours by your foul language and abuse. I'm particularly pleased that you think I might be a fascist myself. People like you find it hard to deal properly with legitimately expressed opinions which differ from yours. The best you can come up with is to label oppostion as fascism. How we all laugh at that TV character on The Young Ones who calls everyone a fascist if he doesn't like them. That's why I'm laughing at you now. If the political future of this country involves people like you or the BNP, I'm emigrating, though to where I'm not sure. I don't think emigration will be necessary. Have a good anti-BNP protest. I'm sure you'll let them know that most people don't have a very high opinion of them, but remember they have just as much right to be on the streets as you do. Freedom, like everything else, has a price. Thank you and goodnight. xxxxx

les

Um...

19.03.2005 21:54

In case you hadn't noticed, Les, the BNP actually are fascists.

Hugh Jass

I Luv Nazis

21.03.2005 23:54

I wish Hitler was alive so I could stick my tongue up his bottom. He wasn't a fascist really, just misunderstood, he had every right to express his opinion. I don't believe Auschwitz and Belsen existed, it's all lies. As for the BNP, they're not really thugs, just nice boys expressing their opinions.

Les

Very productive comment, Les

23.03.2005 14:57

Great comment, Les. Was that meant to be irony (or is it satire - I can never remember the difference)? Whichever, it was a stupid and unnecessary comment. If you really are an intelligent human being you'll know that you do not offer a platform to those who would deny one to you if they came to power. The BNP is not and never has been a democratic party and has no right to enter any democratic process when, clearly, it despises that process and wishes to do away with it. Griffin is a thug in a sharp suit, a fuhrer manquee, that's all, and he'd happily wipe out all Guardian-eating, yoghurt readers (er...) simply because they don't agree with him. If you think any of us are wrong, read up on his background at the Searchlight site or StoptheBNP.org.

Regarding the original question - I'd suggest spreading the word. Let's make our counter-demo ten times the size of theirs!

Ketlan
mail e-mail: ketlan@gmail.com

More details

23.03.2005 15:13

More details (from Stormfront.org)...

The four arrested nationalists have to appear at different times beginning with John Tyndall at 10.30am, through Griffin, Collett and ending with Tom Linden at 4 pm. Which raises several issues: Will the Tyndall supporters disperse after their man has made his appearance or will they stay to support Griffin, Collett, and Linden?

Halifax nick is at
Richmond Close
Halifax
HX1 5TW

Ketlan
mail e-mail: ketlan@gmail.com

words fail...

31.03.2005 11:47

"Les is clearly a fascist apologist, at least. Something he seems too clueless to realise is that electoralism is just a tactic currently being used by the BNP."

words fail- its a tactic they have used for the last 10 years- not currently- for 10 years- since they were forced fromt he streets by AFA. And its working- due to in the most part the useless searchlight grasses from leeds and huddersfield AFA who were rightly kicked out of AFA in 1994/1995 failing to adopt the politicla stratiegies needed to oppose them

Jim Page

dear oh dear....

31.03.2005 11:52

YORKSHIRE R.A.S.H SKIN SAID...

"While obviously most people in this country treat the BNP as offensive / a joke"

Have you been asleep for the last 4 years? What say you on their increasing % vote in Yorkshire- which was topped off by their results in the Euro elections -when they polled over 10% in rotherham, calderdale,wakefield, kirklees and bradford?

Why are you sticking your head in the sand rather than adopting the politicl strategies needed to stop them? Too busy waiting around for a non-0 existent return to the streets, or arguing that the BNPs euronationalist tactics are only tempoary?

or too busy hanging out with the searchlight grasses which seem to infest yorskhire....

Jim Page

Frank YOU ARE!!!

22.05.2005 21:36

Frank you are such a ridiculous PC junkie. You are so false. Maybe when you pass your exams, and grow some pubes, get kids and a mortgage, you may begin to live in the real world.

You are what all of the above people call a yoghurt.

Max

Maximus

Stop the BNP picket April 6th

Comments

Free speech

Never Again!

Liberal hippy crap...

freedom of speech? dont make me laugh

More free speech

Freedom of speech

Me Thinks The Wanker Protesteth Too Much

bnp bollocks

Please Mr Anti-fascist, who can I vote for?

You're wrong Les

You're wrong Les

You said it, Frank

Which side are you on?

Oh dear.

You're More Than Wrong Les

Still In Denial?

Les go buy a guardian and eat some flap jack

It's already 'Happening Again'

So what's the answer...

Fuck You Les

Ooh! You're so rude

Um...

I Luv Nazis

Very productive comment, Les

More details

words fail...

dear oh dear....

Frank YOU ARE!!!

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